Author Topic: Should Bitshares get into the XXX industry?  (Read 5849 times)

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TravelsAsia

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The problem with any PoW effort when it's applied towards a collective purpose (like network security) is that it will become centralized. Applied towards the individual (i.e. like musical taste, song choice etc), it incentivizes decentralization.

Decentralization is the key differentiater. THAT is what makes the invention of the blockchain and BitTorrent great tools in overcoming centralized power and tyranny.

We aren't discussing Proof of Work. We are discussing distributed computation, generalized computation spread across thousands or millions of PCs.

If you have that, then you can rent computation in exchange for access to content.

 I have no problem with competing businesses that want to offer centralized services plug into the MUSE blockchain. Distributed computing sounds great, but hopefully not at the expense of low hanging fruit which is the artist tokens, token content control systems and programming contracts for royalty splitting.  Back to the OP.  Could BitShares get into the XXX industry? Artistcoins along with an easy way to on/offramp could shake up the industry.  In today's model, fans purchase tokens/gifts to view adult actress shows. The Peertracks approach shifts the fan to superfan/promoter. 

Offline luckybit

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The problem with any PoW effort when it's applied towards a collective purpose (like network security) is that it will become centralized. Applied towards the individual (i.e. like musical taste, song choice etc), it incentivizes decentralization.

Decentralization is the key differentiater. THAT is what makes the invention of the blockchain and BitTorrent great tools in overcoming centralized power and tyranny.

We aren't discussing Proof of Work. We are discussing distributed computation, generalized computation spread across thousands or millions of PCs.

If you have that, then you can rent computation in exchange for access to content.
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Offline Thom

The problem with any PoW effort when it's applied towards a collective purpose (like network security) is that it will become centralized. Applied towards the individual (i.e. like musical taste, song choice etc), it incentivizes decentralization.

Decentralization is the key differentiater. THAT is what makes the invention of the blockchain and BitTorrent great tools in overcoming centralized power and tyranny.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

TravelsAsia

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Profit sharing between the porn star and the earliest fans who buy shares in her business because they believe she will be the next superstar.
@luckybit this might be a stupid question but I guess lots of people might share this concern:
What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?
What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?
Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

@cob would have to confirm this, I'm just someone that's read every interview and posed the huge Q/A to better understand the system.

1) What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?

The profit sharing will be automated. I'm not sure if that's handled by the buyback system or smart contracts with streams, tokens and downloads.

2) What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?

The more creative the rewards, the more volume you should see on token purchases.  Think of having the ability to have kickstarter type rewards every day, every week, every month. The artist decides the level of engagement with their audience.  There's also a token unlocking system that will be in place.  You could publish certain items for holders with a certain amount of tokens and have it controlled from one central application.  The selling of music is one of the least interesting features of the system to me.  Some reward ideas might look like what I have below.

- Anyone with at least 300 adultjane tokens have access to my livestream on May 3rd
- Anyone with 1000 adultjane tokens can help me brainstorm a new 5 minute scene with BigDongActor
  BigDong also has a token, so they cross promote
- Anyone with at least 300 novelistbob tokens can participate in a live stream brainstorming session for my upcoming book
- Anyone with at least 300 painterjack tokens will get a signed copy of my limited edition print


3) Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

The fans become the marketing department.  If the artist creates great rewards, potential token buyers have every reason in the world to not only invest but tell everyone about the artist.

The 95% profit retention in real time is exciting for the artist, but the rewards system with the ability to make a living loving music is where the viral potential sits in my opinion.  The last thing I would imagine an artist would want to do is screw over their fans in this type of system.

So the idea summed up for the future:

1) Computation is a commodity which can be exchanged for content by building it into the encrypted file.
2) Profit sharing can be enforced by reputation. I'm pretty sure artists will have a lot more loyal fans if they share.
3) Piracy and copyright infringement is actually reduced on fan friendly platforms which can monetize content through renting CPU cycles.


I'm not disagreeing, I'm just focused on phase 1 that was outlined in the most recent interview. I hope they don't fall into the BitShares trap of getting something to 70-80% of completion and start shifting direction and shifting direction. I'd like to see their phase 1 to be intuitive, fun, hide all tech details, and make it easy for users to explain it to their friends. Once the base is solid, take another step.

Offline luckybit

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Profit sharing between the porn star and the earliest fans who buy shares in her business because they believe she will be the next superstar.
@luckybit this might be a stupid question but I guess lots of people might share this concern:
What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?
What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?
Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

@cob would have to confirm this, I'm just someone that's read every interview and posed the huge Q/A to better understand the system.

1) What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?

The profit sharing will be automated. I'm not sure if that's handled by the buyback system or smart contracts with streams, tokens and downloads.

2) What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?

The more creative the rewards, the more volume you should see on token purchases.  Think of having the ability to have kickstarter type rewards every day, every week, every month. The artist decides the level of engagement with their audience.  There's also a token unlocking system that will be in place.  You could publish certain items for holders with a certain amount of tokens and have it controlled from one central application.  The selling of music is one of the least interesting features of the system to me.  Some reward ideas might look like what I have below.

- Anyone with at least 300 adultjane tokens have access to my livestream on May 3rd
- Anyone with 1000 adultjane tokens can help me brainstorm a new 5 minute scene with BigDongActor
  BigDong also has a token, so they cross promote
- Anyone with at least 300 novelistbob tokens can participate in a live stream brainstorming session for my upcoming book
- Anyone with at least 300 painterjack tokens will get a signed copy of my limited edition print


3) Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

The fans become the marketing department.  If the artist creates great rewards, potential token buyers have every reason in the world to not only invest but tell everyone about the artist.

The 95% profit retention in real time is exciting for the artist, but the rewards system with the ability to make a living loving music is where the viral potential sits in my opinion.  The last thing I would imagine an artist would want to do is screw over their fans in this type of system.

One aspect you're missing is piracy/copyright infringement. In the system I talked about (which isn't what Peertracks currently does now), the computation to unlock a song is the piracy protection. Artists would have to work with the platform to make money from digital sales.

I'm not really talking about Peertracks in specific but something better. I think Peertracks in current form offers no copy protection and no distributed computation so you can't even set up an economy where people buy music with CPU cycles. The point is that it takes a certain amoun tof CPU cycles to generate $1 or 50 cents, and those CPU cycles wuold be the cost of listening to the song.

So people would essentially be mining or computing per listen. This would for example allow people to dedicate cycles to scientific research in exchange to have unlimited access to music. The nerds like us would be willing to pay for music this way, and this would mean the artists would have to team up with us (or in some cases they may be us) to make money from their art.

In most cases I don't think an artist will have anywhere else to go but even if they did try to sell elsewhere it wouldn't matter. Computation would micropay per listen to every piece of content, and if you're talking about porn then the cost to view would be measured in computation cycles which earn enough credits to view.

This would make a huge market for computation on the back of the entertainment industry. Done right, the content itself would be encrypted in such a way that the only way to unlock it is for the host computer to run the assigned computation, and while you might have some cracker types who work really hard to unlock, for most people just using spare CPU cycles is not going to be a big enough deal for them to bother with piracy or copyright infringement.

And for artists, if an artist could know for certain every view or every listen would get them paid, they'd be big winners too. As for profit sharing, if artists don't share profits then they'd have to develop their own platform, which eventually they probably would do, but it doesn't mean every artist would be on a platform which isn't fan friendly, and if too many artists get too greedy about it then they might lose fans.

So the idea summed up for the future:

1) Computation is a commodity which can be exchanged for content by building it into the encrypted file.
2) Profit sharing can be enforced by reputation. I'm pretty sure artists will have a lot more loyal fans if they share.
3) Piracy and copyright infringement is actually reduced on fan friendly platforms which can monetize content through renting CPU cycles.

So basically, we just need distributed computation and we can have monetized content. Computation is something everyone can rent to pay for art. The issue with Bitcoin mining is it wasn't distributed computation, it was just for the security of Bitcoin. Distributed computation would be the ability to compute anything in a decentralized super computer, and I would expect there will be potentially trillions of dollars in terms of market cap when you include every device with a CPU, the Internet of Things, all which can rent computation 24/7.

Any file, whether an app, a video, a song, could only open after a certain amount of CPU cycles unlock it. So if you protein fold for 10 minutes you can unlock the song. This would be seen by the user as similar to the amount of time it takes to download the song from Napster (wait 10 minutes).

@cob

When the time comes, you will need to port Peertracks onto a decentralized computing platform. It would still have to be backward compatible with Bitshares 2.0 via the snapshot and sharedrop mechanisms, but you'll need the ability to embed decentralized computation into the files themselves, into the file format.

So for a stream if it's web based it might be trivially easy and you might be able to do it with the current technology with some sort of extensions so that when people stream the file they compute to unlock similar to pay per view. But then to download the file you would need a new file format where its' like secure .mp3, where the file is encrypted, and every time someone plays the file, it must donate a certain amount of CPU cycles. The CPU would do the work to earn the listen to the file.

I don't see how you could pirate that. Sure you could have people who go out of their way to try to losslessly copy the file but they couldn't make any more money doing that than if they profit shared and got a cut of the CPU cycle profit. And for most people they don't notice or care that their CPU is 100% for 10 minutes while they listen to a song.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 11:40:50 pm by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Profit sharing between the porn star and the earliest fans who buy shares in her business because they believe she will be the next superstar.
@luckybit this might be a stupid question but I guess lots of people might share this concern:
What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?
What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?
Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

Reputation is enough. If an artist betrays their fans, then why would the fans be loyal to the artist? I don't think an artist is going to have much of a career if they don't honor the fans.

You're right, in theory they could take their ball and go home, but go where? Social media makes or breaks artists now.
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TravelsAsia

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Profit sharing between the porn star and the earliest fans who buy shares in her business because they believe she will be the next superstar.
@luckybit this might be a stupid question but I guess lots of people might share this concern:
What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?
What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?
Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

@cob would have to confirm this, I'm just someone that's read every interview and posed the huge Q/A to better understand the system.

1) What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?

The profit sharing will be automated. I'm not sure if that's handled by the buyback system or smart contracts with streams, tokens and downloads.

2) What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?

The more creative the rewards, the more volume you should see on token purchases.  Think of having the ability to have kickstarter type rewards every day, every week, every month. The artist decides the level of engagement with their audience.  There's also a token unlocking system that will be in place.  You could publish certain items for holders with a certain amount of tokens and have it controlled from one central application.  The selling of music is one of the least interesting features of the system to me.  Some reward ideas might look like what I have below.

- Anyone with at least 300 adultjane tokens have access to my livestream on May 3rd
- Anyone with 1000 adultjane tokens can help me brainstorm a new 5 minute scene with BigDongActor
  BigDong also has a token, so they cross promote
- Anyone with at least 300 novelistbob tokens can participate in a live stream brainstorming session for my upcoming book
- Anyone with at least 300 painterjack tokens will get a signed copy of my limited edition print


3) Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

The fans become the marketing department.  If the artist creates great rewards, potential token buyers have every reason in the world to not only invest but tell everyone about the artist.

The 95% profit retention in real time is exciting for the artist, but the rewards system with the ability to make a living loving music is where the viral potential sits in my opinion.  The last thing I would imagine an artist would want to do is screw over their fans in this type of system.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 10:27:56 pm by TravelsAsia »

jakub

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Profit sharing between the porn star and the earliest fans who buy shares in her business because they believe she will be the next superstar.
@luckybit this might be a stupid question but I guess lots of people might share this concern:
What is the incentive that will make a music artist (or a porn star) stick to their promise of sharing their future revenues with their token holders?
What prevents a future Amy Winehouse discovered on Muse from selling her music elsewhere (i.e. outside Muse) and thus making her token worthless?
Is there anything, apart from an artist's reputation, that makes this profit-sharing system viable?

jaran

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I would say, for computation SAFE Network and Ethereum are not sufficient. Ethereum made the fundamental mistake of going Turing complete and now they'll never be able to guarantee security. SAFE Network is built up on Rust which means its probably more secure than Ethereum, and more secure than Bitshares, but distributed computation is another ball game.

So far there isn't anything out there which can do secure distributed computation. Ethereum can't do it. SAFE Network probably wont be able to do it. And if they do manage to make it somewhat secure, it will be very expensive in terms of developer time to keep it that way, especially for Ethereum.

At the same time, I would say decidable distributed computation is on the horizon. We will see it for sure in 2016, and when we do I would say Bitshares should port itself to that platform for Bitshares 3.0.

Thanks luckybit - this helps me in my research. 

What project is working on decidable distributed computation that is coming out in 2016?
Let's see what Plasma is all about :)

Yes very curious what it is going to be  ;)

Offline xeroc

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I would say, for computation SAFE Network and Ethereum are not sufficient. Ethereum made the fundamental mistake of going Turing complete and now they'll never be able to guarantee security. SAFE Network is built up on Rust which means its probably more secure than Ethereum, and more secure than Bitshares, but distributed computation is another ball game.

So far there isn't anything out there which can do secure distributed computation. Ethereum can't do it. SAFE Network probably wont be able to do it. And if they do manage to make it somewhat secure, it will be very expensive in terms of developer time to keep it that way, especially for Ethereum.

At the same time, I would say decidable distributed computation is on the horizon. We will see it for sure in 2016, and when we do I would say Bitshares should port itself to that platform for Bitshares 3.0.

Thanks luckybit - this helps me in my research. 

What project is working on decidable distributed computation that is coming out in 2016?
Let's see what Plasma is all about :)

jaran

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I would say, for computation SAFE Network and Ethereum are not sufficient. Ethereum made the fundamental mistake of going Turing complete and now they'll never be able to guarantee security. SAFE Network is built up on Rust which means its probably more secure than Ethereum, and more secure than Bitshares, but distributed computation is another ball game.

So far there isn't anything out there which can do secure distributed computation. Ethereum can't do it. SAFE Network probably wont be able to do it. And if they do manage to make it somewhat secure, it will be very expensive in terms of developer time to keep it that way, especially for Ethereum.

At the same time, I would say decidable distributed computation is on the horizon. We will see it for sure in 2016, and when we do I would say Bitshares should port itself to that platform for Bitshares 3.0.

Thanks luckybit - this helps me in my research. 

What project is working on decidable distributed computation that is coming out in 2016?

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

At the same time, I would say decidable distributed computation is on the horizon. We will see it for sure in 2016, and when we do I would say Bitshares should port itself to that platform for Bitshares 3.0.

What is decidable distributed computation?
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Offline luckybit

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I would say, for computation SAFE Network and Ethereum are not sufficient. Ethereum made the fundamental mistake of going Turing complete and now they'll never be able to guarantee security. SAFE Network is built up on Rust which means its probably more secure than Ethereum, and more secure than Bitshares, but distributed computation is another ball game.

So far there isn't anything out there which can do secure distributed computation. Ethereum can't do it. SAFE Network probably wont be able to do it. And if they do manage to make it somewhat secure, it will be very expensive in terms of developer time to keep it that way, especially for Ethereum.

At the same time, I would say decidable distributed computation is on the horizon. We will see it for sure in 2016, and when we do I would say Bitshares should port itself to that platform for Bitshares 3.0.
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Offline luckybit

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I have been reading up on maidsafe recently.  Do you think they have a better model than blockchains for dealing with content?  Curious if you think there claims of millions of transactions per second with no no/low fees makes them a superior platform for these types of problems.   Assuming it ever works of course.

Quote
Micropayments are extremely useful for consuming and especially digital content and because Safecoin network payments allow for millions of transactions per second without the fee structures associated with credit cards and Paypal, using the network will be a huge opportunity for individuals looking to share original content dynamically.

http://blog.maidsafe.net/category/using-the-safe-network/

I'm aware of it but I don't think it has an advantage. SAFE Network doesn't have auditability. If you buy something you don't have a blockchain at all. At least with Bitshares you have a blockchain.

For micropayments you can do it with a DAG, or with a blockchain. For privacy, I think most people only want enough privacy so their families don't know they have a mistress but they might not need the sort of technology to handle top secret classified stuff.

SAFE Network does not seem to be working on distributed computation yet. It's in their roadmap eventually but I think that is the killer features rather than storage. I don't think people care so much where the data is stored when it's encrypted because it's encrypted, but the computation is what matters, and the ability to stream.

I would say SAFE Network looks interesting at this time for storage, but it will have a lot of competition when it comes to everything else, and it does not make use of the semantic web or seem to have any sort of advantage with regard to smart contracts, currency, etc. I think Ethereum is probably going to be better than SAFE Network for stuff like porn because of the smart contracts and easier to program for it.

I do think SAFE Network will be more private but then what good is that? Do you think anyone will want to become a cryptographer to figure out how to manage private keys? So they'll end up paying some experts to do it in a multi-sig fashion, and again because Ethereum will be more flexible from the start, I would say Ethereum has advantages.

I think Bitshares is limited in these areas but it doesn't have to stay that way. Bitshares can be implemented on a decentralized computer and we could run it from there when the time comes.  All that would be necessary is to freeze, snapshot, sharedrop, just as how it went from Bitshares 1.0 to Bitshares 2.0.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 07:45:41 am by luckybit »
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jaran

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I have been reading up on maidsafe recently.  Do you think they have a better model than blockchains for dealing with content?  Curious if you think there claims of millions of transactions per second with no no/low fees makes them a superior platform for these types of problems.   Assuming it ever works of course.

Quote
Micropayments are extremely useful for consuming and especially digital content and because Safecoin network payments allow for millions of transactions per second without the fee structures associated with credit cards and Paypal, using the network will be a huge opportunity for individuals looking to share original content dynamically.

http://blog.maidsafe.net/category/using-the-safe-network/