Mechanics and Design to Borrow bitUSD and Trade - Please Help

[merivercap]

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

Yes, we should. I want a price of bitUSD to be zero when I create it, and then I want to sell it at real USD price. I think, everybody should agree with me and merivercap that this is damn cool. Hey, committee, correct this NOW!

I agree.  Part of this can be done if you change the GUI, but it seems there are just two parallel trading mechanism based on different pricing systems.  Hence I'm not sure you can just change parameters and the GUI, but it would be great if someone can clarify.

Dude, do you really believe that you can blow tokens out of the air and sell them? Nobody will ever allow you to do this. BitUSD is a market pegged asset. It is supposed to be pegged to real USD. When you borrow it, you create it, and you have to put a collateral on the table to support it. Otherwise, nobody will trust it. This is what the price feed is needed for. To determine how much of collateral you must set aside to make sure that you are not blowing money out of your ass.

And please, go to exchange and buy some sense of humor tokens to understand sarcasm.

Well I didn't quite understand the bitUSD is zero part, so I thought you meant you wanted to create bitUSD and then sell it immediately on the market... That would be a legitimate request.   Otherwise I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking because your response totally misses the mark for what I was asking.   

When I asked 'Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD? ' , it's about having a limit order of when you want the bitUSD to be created.  When you create bitUSD you are forced to create market orders and that doesn't work well unless you always want to be in front of your computer. 

Secondly I see two different trading mechanisms for the borrower as I mentioned above. 

[yvv]

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

Yes, we should. I want a price of bitUSD to be zero when I create it, and then I want to sell it at real USD price. I think, everybody should agree with me and merivercap that this is damn cool. Hey, committee, correct this NOW!

I agree.  Part of this can be done if you change the GUI, but it seems there are just two parallel trading mechanism based on different pricing systems.  Hence I'm not sure you can just change parameters and the GUI, but it would be great if someone can clarify.

Dude, do you really believe that you can blow tokens out of the air and sell them? Nobody will ever allow you to do this. BitUSD is a market pegged asset. It is supposed to be pegged to real USD. When you borrow it, you create it, and you have to put a collateral on the table to support it. Otherwise, nobody will trust it. This is what the price feed is needed for. To determine how much of collateral you must set aside to make sure that you are not blowing money out of your ass.

And please, go to exchange and buy some sense of humor tokens to understand sarcasm.

[merivercap]

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

I do not see what is stopping you from thinking the price you create the bitUSD being anywhere in the ( 0; infinity] range?
I did not get if you are for or against the price in the 2 cases being the same or different, but it can be whichever you like it to be.

1.  You can only create bitUSD as a market order, not a limit order (unless you can do it on the CLI somewhere)
2.  There seems to be two trades.  One depends upon bitUSD creation and price feed differences from the time you create it and when you close it.
3.  The other depends on the price differences between selling the newly created bitUSD and when you purchase it back in the market. 
4.  I prefer them to be the same. 

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

Yes, we should. I want a price of bitUSD to be zero when I create it, and then I want to sell it at real USD price. I think, everybody should agree with me and merivercap that this is damn cool. Hey, committee, correct this NOW!

I agree.  Part of this can be done if you change the GUI, but it seems there are just two parallel trading mechanism based on different pricing systems.  Hence I'm not sure you can just change parameters and the GUI, but it would be great if someone can clarify. 

[yvv]

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

Yes, we should. I want a price of bitUSD to be zero when I create it, and then I want to sell it at real USD price. I think, everybody should agree with me and merivercap that this is damn cool. Hey, committee, correct this NOW!

[tonyk]

Hmmm... so I sold my 1 USD for 291.1 BTS and I tried to close my debt position and it won't allow it.  So now I need to buy 1 bitUSD to close?  Is that the only way?

Yes. You need at least 1bitusd in your account to close the position.
Or perhaps you can ask others send you 1bitusd.

Ok thanks @puppies @abit.  Just closed the position to confirm.

When you borrow 1 bitusd your account will create a debt position for your account.  This position includes both the collateral you use to secure it, and a debt for bitusd.  In addition to this debt position 1bitusd will be added to your account.  You can then sell that bitusd at whatever price you can find a buyer.  Regardless of what the feed price is.  The goal of course is to buy that 1 bitusd back at a lower price later.

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

I do not see what is stopping you from thinking the price you create the bitUSD being anywhere in the ( 0; infinity] range?
I did not get if you are for or against the price in the 2 cases being the same or different, but it can be whichever you like it to be.

[merivercap]

Hmmm... so I sold my 1 USD for 291.1 BTS and I tried to close my debt position and it won't allow it.  So now I need to buy 1 bitUSD to close?  Is that the only way?

Yes. You need at least 1bitusd in your account to close the position.
Or perhaps you can ask others send you 1bitusd.

Ok thanks @puppies @abit.  Just closed the position to confirm.

When you borrow 1 bitusd your account will create a debt position for your account.  This position includes both the collateral you use to secure it, and a debt for bitusd.  In addition to this debt position 1bitusd will be added to your account.  You can then sell that bitusd at whatever price you can find a buyer.  Regardless of what the feed price is.  The goal of course is to buy that 1 bitusd back at a lower price later.

Shouldn't we allow the user to decide at what price to create bitUSD?  If I want bitUSD I can either buy bitUSD on the market or create bitUSD using my collateral.  Shouldn't the pricing be the same for either choice?  One relies on the market and other the price feed.

[abit]

Hmmm... so I sold my 1 USD for 291.1 BTS and I tried to close my debt position and it won't allow it.  So now I need to buy 1 bitUSD to close?  Is that the only way?

Yes. You need at least 1bitusd in your account to close the position.
Or perhaps you can ask others send you 1bitusd.

[merivercap]

Hmmm... so I sold my 1 USD for 291.1 BTS and I tried to close my debt position and it won't allow it.  So now I need to buy 1 bitUSD to close?  Is that the only way?

[merivercap]

When you borrow 1 bitusd your account will create a debt position for your account.  This position includes both the collateral you use to secure it, and a debt for bitusd.  In addition to this debt position 1bitusd will be added to your account.  You can then sell that bitusd at whatever price you can find a buyer.  Regardless of what the feed price is.  The goal of course is to buy that 1 bitusd back at a lower price later.

Ok so if I sell the bitUSD for BTS my debt position doesn't close?  If that's the case we can disregard the collateral questions 4,5,6 .  I'll sell my bitUSD now to confirm. 

[puppies]

When you borrow 1 bitusd your account will create a debt position for your account.  This position includes both the collateral you use to secure it, and a debt for bitusd.  In addition to this debt position 1bitusd will be added to your account.  You can then sell that bitusd at whatever price you can find a buyer.  Regardless of what the feed price is.  The goal of course is to buy that 1 bitusd back at a lower price later.

[merivercap]

I'm currently testing out the system.

The other day I borrowed 1BitUSD at a Feed price of around 269 I believe.  I post initial collateral of: 543.32667BTS

Today I clicked on 'Borrow BitUSD'

It shows me:
Feed price: 0.00367914 USD/BTS                                 ( 271.8028 BTS/USD )
Margin Call Price: 0.00334467 USD/BTS                     ( 298.9831 BTS/USD )
Your Call Price: 0.00321925 USD/BTS                          ( 310.6317 BTS/USD)

Under debt:
I enter 1 USD

I increase the collateral to 2.0x and it shows me:
543.60556

I select 'Update Position' and it says 'Collateral change:'   0.27889BTS

Ok so based on what I'm seeing so far:
1) All bitUSD creation is always based on the price feed?
2) I can always add or subtract collateral based on the feed price.
3) Call price is set about 12.5% below the feed price?
4) Question:  If the bitUSD borrower puts up 543.60556 BTS when we have 271.8028 BTS/USD, where does the BTS go?  In a pool?
5) If someone wants to purchase bitUSD with BTS for let's say 271.8028 BTS/USD where does the buyers 271.8028 BTS go?  In the pool?
6) I'm just wondering if the current protocol is designed for 3x collateral per bitUSD or 2x collateral ...
7) I'm also wondering why we can't borrow bitUSD with a limit order or is that something you can you do in the CLI?  Seems weird to me that you have to rely on the price feed when posting collateral, but the trading typically doesn't use the price feed.   

If someone can elaborate that would be great.  Thanks.