Author Topic: Proxy: xeroc  (Read 16017 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1404
    • View Profile
    • Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko?
  • BitShares: cyrano
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #135 on: October 01, 2018, 12:02:39 pm »
At this point, I decided to withdraw my support from witnesses to that feed BSIP42 to bitUSD. This will happen later this week so there is sufficient time for witnesses to
evaluate their individual situation.


I started to feed BSIP42 on BitUSD mostly because majority of witnesses started to do the same. Few hours ago in the witness chat Bitcrab told everyone that they will start removing votes for witnesses that do not support BSIP42 starting with spring-team, but in reality their votes do not much the BSIP42 BitUSD witnesses.

Guys, your fighting is endangering the stability of the blockchain! Keep in mind that the witness job is not only about the price feed.

Please acknowledge the fact that there are disagreements about BSIP-42 and do not vote out witnesses who have been providing reliable services just because they disagree with you.
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de

Offline binggo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
    • View Profile
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #136 on: October 01, 2018, 12:11:50 pm »
At this point, I decided to withdraw my support from witnesses to that feed BSIP42 to bitUSD. This will happen later this week so there is sufficient time for witnesses to
evaluate their individual situation.


I started to feed BSIP42 on BitUSD mostly because majority of witnesses started to do the same. Few hours ago in the witness chat Bitcrab told everyone that they will start removing votes for witnesses that do not support BSIP42 starting with spring-team, but in reality their votes do not much the BSIP42 BitUSD witnesses.

Guys, your fighting is endangering the stability of the blockchain! Keep in mind that the witness job is not only about the price feed.

Please acknowledge the fact that there are disagreements about BSIP-42 and do not vote out witnesses who have been providing reliable services just because they disagree with you.

Agreed.

Offline Thom

Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #137 on: October 01, 2018, 03:23:34 pm »
At this point, I decided to withdraw my support from witnesses to that feed BSIP42 to bitUSD. This will happen later this week so there is sufficient time for witnesses to
evaluate their individual situation.


I started to feed BSIP42 on BitUSD mostly because majority of witnesses started to do the same. Few hours ago in the witness chat Bitcrab told everyone that they will start removing votes for witnesses that do not support BSIP42 starting with spring-team, but in reality their votes do not much the BSIP42 BitUSD witnesses.

Guys, your fighting is endangering the stability of the blockchain! Keep in mind that the witness job is not only about the price feed.

Please acknowledge the fact that there are disagreements about BSIP-42 and do not vote out witnesses who have been providing reliable services just because they disagree with you.

Too late, the trend of voting out witnesses started already with BSIP42 while experimenting on BitCNY. Bitcrab and Abit both withdrew their votes from verbaltech2 witness dropping the rank from 3rd down to 19th, simply for asking questions and disagreeing with the way BSIP42 experimentation was being conducted.

I concur, that the health of BitShares will be best with a spirit of cooperation rather than competition & fighting. I do agree with your sentiment PC, but we also shouldn't over react and let voting become constrained either.

I see the biggest issue with trying to move too fast and with too narrow of a view. I would like to see a safer, more conservative, engineering with published analysis.

And thank you PC for reminding everyone there is FAR MORE to the role of witness than price feeds. There seem to be many that disagree, and it's an all or nothing proposition for them to base their votes on only 1 aspect of the witness role, and only on 1 market rather than thinking of the ecosystem as tool for the world.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline abit

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3482
    • View Profile
    • Steemit Blog
  • BitShares: abit
  • GitHub: abitmore
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #138 on: October 01, 2018, 03:46:41 pm »
At this point, I decided to withdraw my support from witnesses to that feed BSIP42 to bitUSD. This will happen later this week so there is sufficient time for witnesses to
evaluate their individual situation.


My thinking is quite easy, I (as a proxy) gave an approval to BSIP42 in the premise that it would be limited to bitCNY for now (in fact I wanted it to named explicitly in the BSIP - which unfortunately didn't happen).
The reason is that I can only acknowledge the fact that the Chinese community apparently wants to experiment with bitCNY which is "their native token" - they know their own markets much better than I do
and I have mostly seen support for BSIP42 from the chinese community so far.

bitUSD is a different beast though. There are many opponents (me included) about running BSIP42 on bitUSD. Not only because there is no real on-off-ramp for bitUSD into fiat USD but also because
it is a less liquid market. I am not convinced it would work well there.

Also, BSIP42, to me is a short term "patch" at best. It forces a price onto the markets instead of providing incentives to the market. Knowing how nuBits failed with such an approach
I would argue that we should do better.

That said, i still support the BSIP42 worker because it want the Chinese community to continue their experiment on bitCNY and chose to instead withdraw my vote
from witnesses that push BSIP42 onto bitUSD.

To avoid playing double standards, will you stop voting for witnesses who refuse to appropriately apply BSIP42 on bitCNY? (note: do it "appropriately" may be a bit hard for some people)
BTS account: abit
BTS committee member: abit
BTS witness: in.abit

Offline abit

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3482
    • View Profile
    • Steemit Blog
  • BitShares: abit
  • GitHub: abitmore
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #139 on: October 01, 2018, 08:27:49 pm »
At this point, I decided to withdraw my support from witnesses to that feed BSIP42 to bitUSD. This will happen later this week so there is sufficient time for witnesses to
evaluate their individual situation.


I started to feed BSIP42 on BitUSD mostly because majority of witnesses started to do the same. Few hours ago in the witness chat Bitcrab told everyone that they will start removing votes for witnesses that do not support BSIP42 starting with spring-team, but in reality their votes do not much the BSIP42 BitUSD witnesses.

Guys, your fighting is endangering the stability of the blockchain! Keep in mind that the witness job is not only about the price feed.

Please acknowledge the fact that there are disagreements about BSIP-42 and do not vote out witnesses who have been providing reliable services just because they disagree with you.

Witnesses (like employees) are expected to do EVERYTHING right.

Voters are expected to make rational decisions. However, no matter what decisions are made, voters have the final say. We're not like the PoW chains.
BTS account: abit
BTS committee member: abit
BTS witness: in.abit

Offline pc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1404
    • View Profile
    • Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko?
  • BitShares: cyrano
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #140 on: October 01, 2018, 09:02:51 pm »
Witnesses (like employees) are expected to do EVERYTHING right.

<fairy tale>
Alice and Bob are running a window cleaning business, and Charlie is their employee. Alice insists that windows must be cleaned with MagicClean(tm), while Bob insists that windows must be cleaned with WindowMagic(tm).

If Charlie uses MagicClean, Bob will fire him. If Charlie uses WindowMagic, Alice will fire him. What should he do?

Alice and Bob's customers don't care how their windows are cleaned, they're just interested in having clean windows. What should they do?

So the customers (and Charlie as well) go to Dave, who is also running a window cleaning business. Charlie, Dave and the customers live happily ever after, while Alice and Bob go broke.
</fairy tale>

If Alice and Bob were clever they'd sort out their differences among themselves, then tell Charlie about their decision. And NO, the BSIP-42 vote is not a decision, because obviously everyone is reading something else into it.

Stop brute-forcing decisions and find consensus!
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de

Offline clockwork

  • Committee member
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: clockwork
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2018, 05:17:01 am »
Witnesses (like employees) are expected to do EVERYTHING right.

<fairy tale>
Alice and Bob are running a window cleaning business, and Charlie is their employee. Alice insists that windows must be cleaned with MagicClean(tm), while Bob insists that windows must be cleaned with WindowMagic(tm).

If Charlie uses MagicClean, Bob will fire him. If Charlie uses WindowMagic, Alice will fire him. What should he do?

Alice and Bob's customers don't care how their windows are cleaned, they're just interested in having clean windows. What should they do?

So the customers (and Charlie as well) go to Dave, who is also running a window cleaning business. Charlie, Dave and the customers live happily ever after, while Alice and Bob go broke.
</fairy tale>

If Alice and Bob were clever they'd sort out their differences among themselves, then tell Charlie about their decision. And NO, the BSIP-42 vote is not a decision, because obviously everyone is reading something else into it.

Stop brute-forcing decisions and find consensus!

nice methaphor...Only thing missing is expecting Charlie to know enough advanced chemistry to decide which of the 2 products is better for the environment.

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12722
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2018, 08:01:44 am »
At this point, I decided to withdraw my support from witnesses to that feed BSIP42 to bitUSD. This will happen later this week so there is sufficient time for witnesses to
evaluate their individual situation.


My thinking is quite easy, I (as a proxy) gave an approval to BSIP42 in the premise that it would be limited to bitCNY for now (in fact I wanted it to named explicitly in the BSIP - which unfortunately didn't happen).
The reason is that I can only acknowledge the fact that the Chinese community apparently wants to experiment with bitCNY which is "their native token" - they know their own markets much better than I do
and I have mostly seen support for BSIP42 from the chinese community so far.

bitUSD is a different beast though. There are many opponents (me included) about running BSIP42 on bitUSD. Not only because there is no real on-off-ramp for bitUSD into fiat USD but also because
it is a less liquid market. I am not convinced it would work well there.

Also, BSIP42, to me is a short term "patch" at best. It forces a price onto the markets instead of providing incentives to the market. Knowing how nuBits failed with such an approach
I would argue that we should do better.

That said, i still support the BSIP42 worker because it want the Chinese community to continue their experiment on bitCNY and chose to instead withdraw my vote
from witnesses that push BSIP42 onto bitUSD.

To avoid playing double standards, will you stop voting for witnesses who refuse to appropriately apply BSIP42 on bitCNY? (note: do it "appropriately" may be a bit hard for some people)
I don't mind witnesses running BSIP42 on bitCNY, its up to them. But for bitUSD, more convincing and more factual information is needed.
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline bitcrab

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: bitcrab
  • GitHub: bitcrab
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #143 on: October 02, 2018, 08:18:04 am »
To further improve bitassets, I would recommend to lose then limits of the "short protection ratio" in case a call position goes
below a collateral ratio of .. say 130% to force the margin call to buy into the entire market not just up to 10%. This would be an
additional penalty to those that don't even bother keeping their collateral ratio sane.

"increasing penalty to debt position owners" is not a key to solve the problem, it always make things even worse.

when market become serious bear, it's not easy for most of the players to add more money to the market. and actually the borrower in BTS is not only the simple borrowers in traditional financial markets, they play the important role of issuing currency! when you increase the cost to issue currency, the result is less users to issue less currency, and lead to more serious currency deflation problem.

My personal stand: I am AGAINST BSIP42 on BitUSD clearly puts BitUSD holders at an disadvantage and effectively wipes out their ability to convert their BitUSD to BTS and a true face value. BitUSD creators have their call price always ABOVE the current market price (black swan if they don't sell?)

bitUSD is designed to peg USD, not to provide premium, as a stable coin, big premium/discount are hindering potential adopters to come in.

force settlement is seldom used for long time, simple to understand, before BSIP42, feed price is already >3% higher than DEX price, considering the 1% force settlement offset, you always to pay more than 4% to convert bitUSD to BTS by forse settlement comparing to just buy in DEX, if you place a buy order with price 2% higher than latest price, your orders will be fulfilled rapidly, right?
Email´╝Ü[email protected]

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12722
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #144 on: October 02, 2018, 08:49:35 am »
I hereby remove my "threat" of unvoting witnesses if they apply BSIP42 to bitUSD.
Ultimately, threatening them was a mistake to begin with. Also, BSIP42 has been approved explicitly to grant freedom of choice to the witnesses. IMHO proxies shouldn't push a their decision about BSIP42 onto the witnesses.

With that said, sorry for my previous statement and sorry for the mess and uncertainty it may have caused.
Please also note the discussion in this thread: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27203.msg322845#msg322845
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline yury

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
    • openledger.info
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #145 on: October 09, 2018, 10:08:32 am »
Dear Xeroc, could you please clarify you point here? What is the reason for you to not unvote those witnesses who feed updated prices to bitUSD?
1. You believe applying BSIP42 is safe for bitUSD.
2. You have concerns regarding BSIP42 applied to bitUSD, but you don't want or afraid to make a decision and take actions.
3. Any other?

Thank you very much in advance!
Yury Cherniawsky
OpenLedger

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12722
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #146 on: October 10, 2018, 10:08:02 am »
Dear Xeroc, could you please clarify you point here? What is the reason for you to not unvote those witnesses who feed updated prices to bitUSD?
1. You believe applying BSIP42 is safe for bitUSD.
2. You have concerns regarding BSIP42 applied to bitUSD, but you don't want or afraid to make a decision and take actions.
3. Any other?

Thank you very much in advance!

We currently are in a very interesting (and also competitive) time when it comes to "stable" crypto assets.
With that said, we do *need* to improve, or we will not be able to compete for much longer.

The market sees a need for a tighter peg, and the current "solution" provides that quite well.
It is my believe that the way BSIP42 is currently implemented is suboptimal in many ways, but it
achieves its goals. In addition, there is a backend limitation that prevents the witnesses from using
other means for utilizing BSIP42 fully.

In short, the way most witnesses currently deal with BSIP42 should be a short-term solution that is
ideally replaced with a method that is currently highly discussed but only possible *AFTER* fixing
the backend.

With those things in mind, I believe there is more value in keeping BSIP42 for now than to ditch it away
without replacement.
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12722
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #147 on: October 10, 2018, 02:36:39 pm »
I have voted for the "bitshares-org" worker proposal:
https://www.bitshares.foundation/workers/2018-10-bitshares-org
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline yury

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
    • openledger.info
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #148 on: October 11, 2018, 07:36:52 am »
With those things in mind, I believe there is more value in keeping BSIP42 for now than to ditch it away
without replacement.

Thanks a lot for the elaboration, Fabian!
Just to be totally clear, do I understand correctly that you evaluate risk of undercollateralization as very low?
Yury Cherniawsky
OpenLedger

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12722
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Proxy: xeroc
« Reply #149 on: October 11, 2018, 09:59:53 am »
Just to be totally clear, do I understand correctly that you evaluate risk of undercollateralization as very low?
I do believe undercollatarlization must be avoided at all costs!
But I also realize that
a) black swan isn't as bad as world armageddon, but in fact can be recovered through BSIP18 and
b) the risk of *OVER-ALL* undercollateralization is much smaller than the risk of an individual position going below 100% collateral.

Point b) is very crucial to understand and while I do not believe we should bail out individual short positions with too little collateral (but instead would rather penalize
them), I do see a fine line between risking the entire asset through global settlement just because of a single position being undercollateralized and temporarily tune
price feeds to potentially "hide" a few undercollateralized positions (that will have a margin call that can be filled!).

Again, to me, this is a short-term solution and I would prefer any undercollateralization to be *obvisous* and *transparent*, but we first need to fix the backend to provide us
with the necessary means to get there. In the mean time, plenty of discussion is being done to figure out the "how"
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH