Let`s kickstart the Stock derivatives Market

[Empirical1.2]

These guys have been doing for a while with Bitcoin, https://1broker.com/ . Maybe we can work with them.

Good idea! BitShares seems to be a much better choice for this. I used them in the past for forex and stocks.

I think their selection is a good one to emulate in terms of amount of markets to start off.  https://1broker.com/?c=cfds

This is more the market the DEX can compete in and I imagine a BitAsset would be much cheaper if you planned to be long/short for any reasonable length of time https://1broker.com/?c=overnight_financing_calculator

They pay dividends by crediting long positions and debiting short position https://1broker.com/?c=help#dividends 
If you could emulate that then owning the underlying like DACX attempts to, is less important?

[Pheonike]

I made about 50 bitcoin going long with them 5x leverage during big rise 2013. But then lost most of it on the crash.  They stopped offering leverage on BTC for a long time after that.

[xeroc]

You guys know that this is a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY where money can be made by however establishes a (privatized) bit asset tracking a successful asset and having high liquidity FIRST?

I for my self would provide them if I had access to reliable price sources (like bloomberg) and if my lawyer would tell me that it's safe to do ..

But why do this through a UIA instead of a SmartCoin? Doesn't the former expose all hodlers to counterparty risk?

Bitshares2 has so called privatized bitassets .. market pegged assets issued by someone

[Akado]

6k users, that's pretty good. Imagine having those actively trading on BitShares

[karnal]

These guys have been doing for a while with Bitcoin, https://1broker.com/ . Maybe we can work with them.

Good idea! BitShares seems to be a much better choice for this. I used them in the past for forex and stocks.

[karnal]

You guys know that this is a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY where money can be made by however establishes a (privatized) bit asset tracking a successful asset and having high liquidity FIRST?

I for my self would provide them if I had access to reliable price sources (like bloomberg) and if my lawyer would tell me that it's safe to do ..

But why do this through a UIA instead of a SmartCoin? Doesn't the former expose all hodlers to counterparty risk?

[Pheonike]

These guys have been doing for a while with Bitcoin, https://1broker.com/ . Maybe we can work with them.

[Xypher]

You guys know that this is a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY where money can be made by however establishes a (privatized) bit asset tracking a successful asset and having high liquidity FIRST?

I for my self would provide them if I had access to reliable price sources (like bloomberg) and if my lawyer would tell me that it's safe to do ..

So true.
I had a hedge fund manager friend of mine interested in donig this through an offshore entity.
Maybe he could partner with @ccedk  and do it.

[xeroc]

You guys know that this is a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY where money can be made by however establishes a (privatized) bit asset tracking a successful asset and having high liquidity FIRST?

I for my self would provide them if I had access to reliable price sources (like bloomberg) and if my lawyer would tell me that it's safe to do ..

[morpheus]

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

Agreed but it would be nice to have the largest indicies set up and ready to go for when liquidity does enter the system.    These 15 world markets would be a good start and to show that this is not just another cryptocurrency exchange.

I like the idea of committee assisting with liquidity but the biggest difference is likely to come with maker and the lending market.  Reducing forced settlement to 99% globally may also be necessary to increase liquidity.  Guaranteeing settlement at parity just gets really confusing for outsiders because of the premium. 

[luckybit]

BitUSD will never work without micropayment capability. It's impossible to market it to the globe without micropayments. It's impossible to have a truly useful global currency without microtransactions.

With micropayments a worker can take the job which pays a penny or less. You can't offer these jobs at all right now because you don't have the capability to do it decentralized. This means the majority of workers in the world will have to go somewhere else to work, which means BitUSD is useless since less than a few hundred people have ever earned it directly and most of us on the forum haven't even earned it.

Brownies are only slightly better but it's totally centralized distribution. EarnBitshares can work if there are micorpayments, and if there aren't, then some substitute currency can work in the background and be exchange for Bitshares to create demand. But either way, micropayments are the only way the whole world will care about Bitshares.

[Samupaha]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?

You would need at least $50k worth of stocks in you possession to back you up, and ability to buy and sell them on exchanges promptly. You would need to collateralise your derivatives at 200% in bitshares. Do you have these funds?

No need to have both. If you are going to do a market pegged asset, you preferably need some BTS to create the initial batch of assets that are sold on the exchange. That way you'll kickstart the markets.

Or you have a fund that owns real stocks and you sell shares of that as a UIA. Will be more difficult to do because of regulations, but not necessarily impossible. When the wallet has KYC/AML-feature implemented, this might be a feasible project.

[luckybit]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

@JonnyBitcoin

There is no demand for BitUSD or BitCNY because currently Bitshares is just a programmers toy. In order to change this we need EarnBitshares so anyone can earn BitUSD, BitCNY, and only then will it gain some real value.

You currently have no simple ways to earn or spend it. With limited ways to earn or spend it, can we expect any demand for it? Microwork is how you can generate demand for it by marketing it to the people most likely to use it. A microjob (a job which pays in micropayments) is how you market a currency. Currencies are marketed by the jobs which pay in that currency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwork
http://humancomputation.org/

What seems to be holding Bitshares back is the lack of micro-payment capability. Without that you don't have the possibility of microwork. WIthout microwork, the vast majority of the earth cannot earn BitUSD and it's just going to remain a programmers toy.  With microwork, every human can contribute human computation to earn Bitshares and the chicken and egg problem is solved.

I don't think Bitshares is on the path to solve this problem anytime soon so it looks like we should keep our eye on Iota. A collaboration with their team might be the only option.

[bitacer]

OP: Why not create at least one asset by yourself, just like what bitcrab did? It's just 5000 BTS of fee. If you don't like to own the asset, just update the owner to committee-account so the committee will be able to deal with the following matters when needed.
Witnesses would need efforts/fund to maintain price feeding for your asset. Best if you can fund @xeroc to implement a price feed script first.

Let's do it? Just do it.

I have a few to spare.

[puppies]

Is there a free real-time stock tracking api we could plug into our price feeds? 

As a witness I'll gladly run any price feed that I can have reasonable assurance will be accurate. 

As a committee member I'll gladly vote to add any mpa that I think will be able to accurately track it's real life counterpart.

[abit]

OP: Why not create at least one asset by yourself, just like what bitcrab did? It's just 5000 BTS of fee. If you don't like to own the asset, just update the owner to committee-account so the committee will be able to deal with the following matters when needed.
Witnesses would need efforts/fund to maintain price feeding for your asset. Best if you can fund @xeroc to implement a price feed script first.

Let's do it? Just do it.

[sittingduck]

You can use bitusd to collateralize stocks.

[Empirical1.2]

Yeah, lets add another zero volume bit-something, the 100-1000 users of bitshares will be ecstactic 

How do you know which bit-something will have zero volume?
Let the market decide. If only 1 of 100 new assets will become a success, that`s still a success story.

Chances are it will have little/no volume, but the top 10 stocks and indices are something BitShares will at some point add anyway, given that we have so few witnesses, I don't see the harm in adding them now.

They are the things it is hard to trade without signing up for a spread trading account, so could be popular & a good USP that would at least differentiate BTS from the competition.

[Akado]

The same way USD markets is iliquid is the same way those will be. Collateral needed to create the asset is too much otherwise people would create them more often. You can buy those assets but then you most likely won't be able to sell them any time soon and people prefer not having their funds trapped in an illiquid market.

It will happen the exact same thing as in USD, CNY, EUR, markets

[yvv]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?

You would need at least $50k worth of stocks in you possession to back you up, and ability to buy and sell them on exchanges promptly. You would need to collateralise your derivatives at 200% in bitshares. Do you have these funds?

[bitacer]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

 

[Samupaha]

I'm a little bit skeptical if users really want stocks at this time. It would be a unique offering but I haven't seen much interest in that. Maybe MAKER will bring better incentives so somebody has a good reason to really invest in marketing?

Sure, we all are skeptical of something and it`s not the first time that people don`t see demand for a new business...
EDIT: https://www4.dailyfx.com/forex/education/trading_tips/daily_trading_lesson/2014/01/24/FX_Market_Size.html
If $5.3 trillion per day is not enough demand then I don`t know.

Yeah, forex is big, but I meant stock markets. This forum has had some interested in stock markets, but not really that much. Nobody has so far done anything to ramp up stock-MPA's as real products with properly done marketing.

I have just seen so many times how people get overly excited when they have an idea and a few friends tell them it's a good one. Better to do a proper marketing research first to find out how much demand there really is.

There are smartcoins for SHANGHAI and HANGSENG. They are marked as inactive so I don't know how to actually start using them or is it even possible. Maybe it's enough if somebody just starts to offer a price feed for them? If that's the case, there you have two indexes for free.

[Xypher]

I'd posted a proposal along this line here
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20855.msg269513.html#msg269513

I am willing to get a hedge fund set in an offshore location and assist with bringing the stock markets to the DEX.
Been already conversing with a few graduates from a prominent western uni in regards to the possibilities involved with this.

Regards
X

[karnal]

Yeah, lets add another zero volume bit-something, the 100-1000 users of bitshares will be ecstactic 

What is there to lose?

What could we win from this, ESPECIALLY if the Chinese Community could get a CNY bridge going, and OpenLedger a EUR/USD/GBP one?
Plus some articles on yahoo finance etc, as we had before?

This is huge, traders are more sophisticated than average joe, the only downside of course is that the technology isn't proven yet (bitshares, that is), and for many this would be big bucks. Also, without privacy, I doubt many would use it.

Since registering extra accounts and transfering stealth assets to various such accounts will prove to be too complicated for even an experienced trader who's not too familiar with blockchain technology, as far as I can see this would have to be addressed as well, somehow.. though from my limited understanding of how stealth/confidential will work, there is no good way to do this without requiring constant backups as new stealth funds are transfered..

[btswolf]

Yeah, lets add another zero volume bit-something, the 100-1000 users of bitshares will be ecstactic 

How do you know which bit-something will have zero volume?
Let the market decide. If only 1 of 100 new assets will become a success, that`s still a success story.

[karnal]

I, for one, would gladly invest monthly into ETFs.

Have you guys seen the comissions brokers charge ? If word gets out that you can do the same on a blockchain for cents per order...

Waiting eagerly for Bit{CNY,EUR,SGD,CHF,USD,NZD,AUS,RUB}/{SP500,NASDAQ,SHANGHAI,HANGSENG,...}.

Do it.

[chryspano]

Yeah, lets add another zero volume bit-something, the 100-1000 users of bitshares will be ecstactic 

[btswolf]

I'm a little bit skeptical if users really want stocks at this time. It would be a unique offering but I haven't seen much interest in that. Maybe MAKER will bring better incentives so somebody has a good reason to really invest in marketing?

Sure, we all are skeptical of something and it`s not the first time that people don`t see demand for a new business...
EDIT: https://www4.dailyfx.com/forex/education/trading_tips/daily_trading_lesson/2014/01/24/FX_Market_Size.html
If $5.3 trillion per day is not enough demand then I don`t know.

I think that a basket currency could be a better choice now. It's easier to sell people who are afraid of financial crisis. If we have a crisis, people want to dump all their stocks. But a basket currency could be marketed as a global crisis-resistant currency.

there is no better choice. We need all opportunities.
Stock Derivatives don`t exclude the possibility for basket currencys or indices or whatever.
Each financial instrument got it`s own fans and users.
but "every" new user no matter his likings will help us growing.

Right now we are in the stage short before the crypto-economy goes boom.
But the great market cleansing will come, sooner than you`d expect it.
And every crypto that is not competitive at the given time will fall back quickly and becomes dust in crypto history.
Again the key is growing now, not in 12 months.

[btswolf]

We should focus on only one BTS/BITASSET market.  Probably CNY or USD.  Then we should have market making in the CNY/USD market where the risks are lower.

I believe this is the way forward.

This statement from BM was related to the MAKER proposal.
Whats wrong with doing both, focusing the MAKER on CNY/USD and start the stock market in parallel.
I don't see why we should focus on only one market in general or do you want to wait until there is a MAKERBOT for each asset available?
If you don`t like to trade stocks you don`t have to, but I don`t see why we should prevent others to try it out.

[Samupaha]

I'm a little bit skeptical if users really want stocks at this time. It would be a unique offering but I haven't seen much interest in that. Maybe MAKER will bring better incentives so somebody has a good reason to really invest in marketing?

I think that a basket currency could be a better choice now. It's easier to sell people who are afraid of financial crisis. If we have a crisis, people want to dump all their stocks. But a basket currency could be marketed as a global crisis-resistant currency.

[JonnyB]

We should focus on only one BTS/BITASSET market.  Probably CNY or USD.  Then we should have market making in the CNY/USD market where the risks are lower.

I believe this is the way forward.

[btswolf]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

There has to be a reason why people should buy bitUSD CNY etc. The more Assets can be traded against pegged FIAT the more demand and liquidity will come.

we can think and talk all the time about how to bring liquidity, but whatever we try to create artificially will be a waste of time and resources. we need to create demand through opportunities. give me the possibility to create a buy order on my favorite stock and I`m sure I will find someone to short it.

lots of people would want bitusd if it was available to buy. But you can't! theres only $1000 available for sale at the moment at a 20% premium!

- And what`s the  cause?
I believe the cause is that our the trading community is too small.

- And what`s the conclusion?
I believe we just need a bigger community.

- And how to become a bigger community?
I believe we need to create incentives.

- And how to create incentives?
I believe people want to be able to trade at any time, anything for the cheapest possible trading fees.

- And how to trade at any time, anything for the lowest fees?
You can already trade at any time for the lowest fees compared to traditional stock exchanges and FOREX brokers on BitShares.
I believe we just need more assets that reflect the value of real world assets and to create more trading incentives.

Sure this is nothing that will grow our community over night. But even if we could generate just a bit more publicity by being able to compete with traditional markets this would be a success.
Create 10 CFDs per week and gain ongoing promotion for free.
Create headlines by adding stocks that are popular at a given time, e.g. Forbes Top50 Fintech for 2016.
If a company comes up with a new popular Stock or whatever you can trade at a exchange create a CFD of it on BitShares.

Every single user we can bring in will add his tiny bit of liquidity.

The key to success is to keep growing, by diversity.

[JonnyB]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

There has to be a reason why people should buy bitUSD CNY etc. The more Assets can be traded against pegged FIAT the more demand and liquidity will come.

we can think and talk all the time about how to bring liquidity, but whatever we try to create artificially will be a waste of time and resources. we need to create demand through opportunities. give me the possibility to create a buy order on my favorite stock and I`m sure I will find someone to short it.

lots of people would want bitusd if it was available to buy. But you can't! theres only $1000 available for sale at the moment at a 20% premium! 

[Empirical1.2]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

There has to be a reason why people should buy bitUSD CNY etc. The more Assets can be traded against pegged FIAT the more demand and liquidity will come.

we can think and talk all the time about how to bring liquidity, but whatever we try to create artificially will be a waste of time and resources. we need to create demand through opportunities. give me the possibility to create a buy order on my favorite stock and I`m sure I will find someone to short it.

According to FactSet, year-to-date combined average volume of the 10 most actively-traded companies on the S&P 500 SPX, -0.94%  was more than the volume of the bottom least-traded 250 companies.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/these-are-the-most-heavily-traded-stocks-on-wall-street-2015-05-29

So I would suggest we add the top 10 traded stocks and 2/3 indices even though they are unlikely to be traded much/if at all at first.

It would still be a unique feature that I don't think other blockchains have.

Competing with crypto-currency exchanges isn't easy because you can't deposit & withdraw your favourite altcoins, so stock derivatives are definitely a good USP.

[btswolf]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

There has to be a reason why people should buy bitUSD CNY etc. The more Assets can be traded against pegged FIAT the more demand and liquidity will come.

we can think and talk all the time about how to bring liquidity, but whatever we try to create artificially will be a waste of time and resources. we need to create demand through opportunities. give me the possibility to create a buy order on my favorite stock and I`m sure I will find someone to short it.

[JonnyB]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?

Unfortunately none of the MPAs/bitassets/smartcoins are serving there purpose due to lack of liquidity, large spreads and no depth.

All efforts should be focused on getting bitUSD and bitCNY functioning with low spreads and market depth.

We are a long way from having stock market indexs as MPAs let alone individual stocks.

[mindphlux]

I would love to support this.

Would have to decide on asset names though.

Is it AAPL, NASDAQ.AAPL, STOCKS.AAPL?
Same with GOOG. We would have to decide on one common naming scheme. I would prefer AAPL and GOOG in this example.

4 char cost 260k BTS, but this could be changed by the committee temporal while it creates the assets.

[pioneer]

I would love to somehow provide others with the service of being able to invest in my country's stock market (there are many fast growing companies that are unavailable for foreigners to invest in easily).

I do research and invest in promising companies. Together my portfolio outperformed the rest of the market by over 20% in 2015. To be able to offer those same stocks in Bitshares, together with fundamental analysis for potential investors, would be fun.

[btswolf]

What is needed to bring Stock derivatives online?
If I understand it correct the Committee could bring in a lot of MPAs that reflect the price of real Stocks, ETFs etc?
What is holding us back in creating those assets?

I would love to diversify my portfolio by mixing it with many more kinds of investments.
We could be the first Exchange to trade really anything.

This would bring us a lot of attention and thus more users and liquidity.
We should bring ever week a couple of new assets.
every week in the news
growing a bit every week

Thoughts?