Author Topic: exchange preparing for voting  (Read 26685 times)

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Offline fav

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99% of the exchanges can't even follow simple development updates on github. people encouraging them to use their users' funds just want to see the world burn

Offline abit

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why do you assume that an exchange would vote in a bad way for bitshares? No one can make this assumption.

Because they don't have skin in the game. When people don't have their own money at stake, they don't care how it's spent. Of course they can say that they care, and maybe they do for a while, but in the long run everybody cares more about their own money than others'.

tl;dr Btc38 did earn a large stake of BTS via trading fee of PTS and BTS and DNS. True for Bter and Polo perhaps. But yunbi did not since it's free..

@Samupaha rather than complaining, would you like to provide some constructive suggestions? Imo Xeroc's comment above makes much sense.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 10:45:11 am by abit »
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Offline Samupaha

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why do you assume that an exchange would vote in a bad way for bitshares? No one can make this assumption.

Because they don't have skin in the game. When people don't have their own money at stake, they don't care how it's spent. Of course they can say that they care, and maybe they do for a while, but in the long run everybody cares more about their own money than others'.

And I don't mean that exchange will always vote badly on purpose. Exchanges can easily become apathetic voters because they don't have an incentive to actively check if their proxy is doing a good job or not. They will just vote for somebody and leave it that way. Because exchanges usually have very big stake, this is not desirable.

Maybe the exchange would vote for the interests of the bts it holds and hence in the interest of bitshares..

Hoping for the best is not usually very viable business strategy. And in this case bitcrab already told that they are not interested in taking active participation in Bitshares decision making.

I am not into voting currently since my stake is insignificant but I see a lot of problems with the current votes. There are witnesses voted who haven't updated their price feeds for ages..How bad is that? I would prefer an exchange to vote for it self and provide more accurate feed prices for example..

Even if you don't have much stake, it's still useful to vote. Whenever you happen to convince a friend or somebody else to invest in Bitshares, you can tell them to vote you if they are too lazy to analyze all the possible candidates themselves, which is usually the case.

Offline xeroc

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@bitcrab: I appreciate and welcome that you have contacted yunbi to tell them about the voting feature. It does no good to hide and ignore the issue assuming exchanges would not vote ..

Actually, I would go one step further and also let tge exchanges kbow about the option to vote with their customers' stake.

BUT: we need to tell the right away that they should inform their customera about their decision, risk customers that disagree and withdraw their funds and tell thrm that they probably enter a higjly political ground once they start voting ...

We should also tell them about the risk if the misuse their power since it could easily crush the whole network.

Further, we need to educate shareholder as officially as possible (bts.org/bsip) and let them know about their RESPONSIBILITIES and that they give up their voting power if they leave funds at a cent. exchange ..

We should also ask exchanges to publish a statement of their decisions.

I really prefer an open discussion with exchanges.

If someone could craft a few paragraphs from this thread so that we can educate them probably, I can forward it to the exchanges.

Thanks @bitcrab for bringing this topic on the table again.

Offline btswolf

don't complain why they do not want to spend time on BTS, they have told me:"we really hope BTS can have a good future, but we have little confidence on this, we are not sure it is decentralized, we can keep the trading pair, but we do not want to pay more resource on it."
With this kind of attitude it's not good if they vote!
Corporation democracy works pretty well because everybody who can vote has skin in the game.
Going after the exchanges is not the solution.
IMHO fight voter apathy is the key.

Offline bitcrab

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So technically bitcrab's proposal in another thread makes sense. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20858.0.html

I think community need to reevaluate the necessity of the proposal. @Stan @xeroc
yes, there's really some challenge while exchange voting comes, thanks for the reminding from @abit
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Offline mf-tzo

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why do you assume that an exchange would vote in a bad way for bitshares? No one can make this assumption. Maybe the exchange would vote for the interests of the bts it holds and hence in the interest of bitshares..I am not into voting currently since my stake is insignificant but I see a lot of problems with the current votes. There are witnesses voted who haven't updated their price feeds for ages..How bad is that? I would prefer an exchange to vote for it self and provide more accurate feed prices for example..

Offline Samupaha

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Exchange is free to vote with BTS which you, dumb assholes, keep in their wallet. This is absolutely just. You give your BTS away, you give your vote away. As simple as this. Don't complain about this, because if you do, you look like idiots.

Although you are correct, this exposes one of the great weaknesses of the POS model, which is highly undesirable, hence the concern.

Exactly, this is why bitcrab's action should have needed throughout discussion first so that everybody would have known the potential problems.  I would have preferred that Bitshares were much bigger until there is an attack against this weakness. There would have been better possibilities to attract traders from the voting exchange to Bitshares exchange.

exactly speaking, I am against bytemaster in some cases, but in most cases I support him, otherwise I would have left Bitshares for months,I think Bitshares need him, I think the relation between bytemaster and committee should be as that between CEO and board, or President and Congress.

Bytemaster doesn't have a position compared to CEO. He is just a powerful shareholder. Also he knows the system best because he invented it, that gives some value for his opinions. But that's not in any way an official position in DAC.

Opposition make sense, especially in bitshares community where there are too much simple followers.

Opposition just for the sake of opposing something isn't valuable. If the opposition can create good criticism and helpful counterproposals, then it will be valuable. So far we have seen mostly just complaining without any credible alternative plans.

they do not want to be active members in community, because they do not have so much time/resource for BTS, they get many information of BTS from my side, they vote mainly because they would like to help to make the committee more diversified/dencentralized.

That's not even remotely good way to create more decentralization. You are just getting more power for yourself. If you really want more decentralization and diversification, you should try to attract more independent actors, people who won't be "simple followers" but rather think with their own brains and vote with their own stake.

don't complain why they do not want to spend time on BTS, they have told me:"we really hope BTS can have a good future, but we have little confidence on this, we are not sure it is decentralized, we can keep the trading pair, but we do not want to pay more resource on it."

With this kind of attitude it's not good if they vote!

Corporation democracy works pretty well because everybody who can vote has skin in the game. It's their own money that they are voting with. If they vote badly, value of their assets go down. And vice versa, if they vote well, value of their assets go up. This will create good incentive to use time and resources to analyze what's the best way to vote.

Voting just because of voting is usually stupid. It will just pollute the votepool with uninformed votes. Voters who vote without having a clear understanding what they are doing are messing the result of the election. If there are lots of uninformed voters, the probability of bad result will go up. In the case of Bitshares this would mean that we'll get bad committee members and untrustworthy witnesses and spend money on useless worker proposals. This will decrease the value of BTS.

It's a problem if an exchange votes because they don't have skin in the game. If they vote badly, they don't depreciate value of their own assets, because they don't own BTS – their customers own it. If Bitshares suffers from bad voting, the exchange itself doesn't suffer. It might even benefit if people start to trade more because price of BTS is going down.

Offline alt

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Technically it's dangerous for the system that one can vote for more than 1/2 of committee members
you are definitely right, vote for more than 1/2 committee, that's a super bomb. hope BTC38 never be hacked
@Bytemаsteг

Offline abit

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Technically it's dangerous for the system that one can vote for more than 1/2 of committee members, especial when we have voting apathy issue right now, since the committee-account has too much power that we may not aware of. For testing purpose, I'll try to propose some terrible proposals for the committee.

Technically it's unable to recognize an account is an exchange account or not. In addition exchange account can be hacked/compromised, as a result the fund may be transferred to another non-exchange account, so hard-coding the exchange account name is not practicable.
 
So technically bitcrab's proposal in another thread makes sense. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20858.0.html

//Update:
Have proposed a "terrible" proposal: http://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.50.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:09:00 am by abit »
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Offline monsterer

Exchange is free to vote with BTS which you, dumb assholes, keep in their wallet. This is absolutely just. You give your BTS away, you give your vote away. As simple as this. Don't complain about this, because if you do, you look like idiots.

Although you are correct, this exposes one of the great weaknesses of the POS model, which is highly undesirable, hence the concern.
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Offline yvv

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Exchange is free to vote with BTS which you, dumb assholes, keep in their wallet. This is absolutely just. You give your BTS away, you give your vote away. As simple as this. Don't complain about this, because if you do, you look like idiots.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:50:29 pm by yvv »

Offline mf-tzo

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I would be very happy to see exchanges voting  +5% +5% and if their vote harm bts holders so be it  :( :(... Maybe bts holders will stop parking their funds in the exchanges then and maybe they start doing some serious trading in the DEX instead and bring some liquidity..

I did park my bts in polo in the past and used them as collateral to margin trade long and I overpaid that last time it crashed..Never again..So unless you want to do the same mistake and margin trade your bts I don't understand why keeping bts in exchanges anymore..Bring that liquidity in DEX or else we will suffer the consequences of potential absurd voting from exchanges

Offline Akado

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On the bright side, can we use that for some marketing? I mean, most exchanges don't care about coins, they just add the ones with volume with profit.

This way we can claim that exchanges actually care about BitShares. That means something.
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Offline lil_jay890

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Whenever there is voting power threating the king bytemaster will lead to the rule changes. BTS is bytemaster's private toy, he won't allow being challenged.

I welcome the challenge and feel no need to control.  I just try to help.

Having the exchanges vote should bring in more stability to bitshares... changes should be a process and debated by as many players as possible.  This is a good thing.