Fees are a real problem for the DEX

[Xeldal]

Allow user defined fees.  Incentivize paying higher fee with a fee token.

hypothetical:
paying zero fee, requires POW upto minimum 1 BTS, no fee token issued.
paying minimum 1 BTS fee, no POW required, no Fee token issued.
paying more then 1 BTS fee upto maximum 100BTS fee, no POW required, Issues user a fee token.

The fee token could be used for various things like reputation, discounts, sharedrop, dividends, referral bonus, lottery etc?   What other incentives could there be for voluntarily paying higher fees?

Maybe the fee token gradually degrades over time, but can be used instead of BTS to pay fees at a discount.  So initially you elect to pay 100 BTS fee and receive 200 fee tokens which can then be used to pay fees for some amount of time at a discount. 

just some random thoughts.

 

[clayop]

Something similar to bitmessage ..
But how would BTS ever be profitable then? We end up having a token that you can only use as collateral and has no other benefits .. am i missing something?

IMHO, being able to trade on a decentralized exchange is worth a small fee for transfers/orders etc .. but I can understand the issue people are having with it

charge UIA creation , etc for a higher fee .
one sale of UIA beats fee from 1000 traders .

Basically I agree with this idea.
The system needs fees. If the fees don't come from users, then it should come from the business partners.
Instead of increasing UIA creation fee, I'd rather like to add some kind of fees for using the UIA if possible. For example, an issuer pay 10000 BTS in advance, so the users can make transfers of that UIA for free for a month or so.

//Edit:
Business partners want their users to have better experience of their product, but it's not free, they need to pay for it. Imo it's a win-win.

I agree with this too. 5000 BTS is too cheap for having the most powerful blockchain-based asset in the world. IMHO 20k~30k BTS for long name asset would be better.

how will this change the charged fees from the users?

maybe we can split it. lets say on bitUSD/BTS market, if you place an order under x BTS you will charged a fee, if it is higher and stays x minutes on the DEX it will be charged nothing.

Could we charge the fee after the order is chancelled?

No. That can be another attacking vector (placing enormous amount of orders without cancelling, consuming memory).
What about lowering placing order fee to 0.5~1 BTS? Is it also problematic?

[Shentist]

Something similar to bitmessage ..
But how would BTS ever be profitable then? We end up having a token that you can only use as collateral and has no other benefits .. am i missing something?

IMHO, being able to trade on a decentralized exchange is worth a small fee for transfers/orders etc .. but I can understand the issue people are having with it

charge UIA creation , etc for a higher fee .
one sale of UIA beats fee from 1000 traders .

Basically I agree with this idea.
The system needs fees. If the fees don't come from users, then it should come from the business partners.
Instead of increasing UIA creation fee, I'd rather like to add some kind of fees for using the UIA if possible. For example, an issuer pay 10000 BTS in advance, so the users can make transfers of that UIA for free for a month or so.

//Edit:
Business partners want their users to have better experience of their product, but it's not free, they need to pay for it. Imo it's a win-win.

I agree with this too. 5000 BTS is too cheap for having the most powerful blockchain-based asset in the world. IMHO 20k~30k BTS for long name asset would be better.

how will this change the charged fees from the users?

maybe we can split it. lets say on bitUSD/BTS market, if you place an order under x BTS you will charged a fee, if it is higher and stays x minutes on the DEX it will be charged nothing.

Could we charge the fee after the order is chancelled?

[btswildpig]

The major problem -- which is actually in itself not a problem-- that the is not enough PR out there to explain bitshares, one of the reason seems to me is that everybody is still busy building and perfecting the product. Once that is eased a little , some resources should be allocated to advertising and displaying some real use cases. We all see what PR can achieve just as in DASH or some other products out there. None of them actually has what BitShares has.

Dash have active development and developed some cool stuff .
They can transfer money in 0.1 second using master nodes or whatever .
The Dash devs are known to "propose an idea and then finish it" .

A little birdie told me .

[clayop]

Something similar to bitmessage ..
But how would BTS ever be profitable then? We end up having a token that you can only use as collateral and has no other benefits .. am i missing something?

IMHO, being able to trade on a decentralized exchange is worth a small fee for transfers/orders etc .. but I can understand the issue people are having with it

charge UIA creation , etc for a higher fee .
one sale of UIA beats fee from 1000 traders .

Basically I agree with this idea.
The system needs fees. If the fees don't come from users, then it should come from the business partners.
Instead of increasing UIA creation fee, I'd rather like to add some kind of fees for using the UIA if possible. For example, an issuer pay 10000 BTS in advance, so the users can make transfers of that UIA for free for a month or so.

//Edit:
Business partners want their users to have better experience of their product, but it's not free, they need to pay for it. Imo it's a win-win.

I agree with this too. 5000 BTS is too cheap for having the most powerful blockchain-based asset in the world. IMHO 20k~30k BTS for long name asset would be better.

[Shentist]

Something similar to bitmessage ..
But how would BTS ever be profitable then? We end up having a token that you can only use as collateral and has no other benefits .. am i missing something?

IMHO, being able to trade on a decentralized exchange is worth a small fee for transfers/orders etc .. but I can understand the issue people are having with it

charge UIA creation , etc for a higher fee .
one sale of UIA beats fee from 1000 traders .

Basically I agree with this idea.
The system needs fees. If the fees don't come from users, then it should come from the business partners.
Instead of increasing UIA creation fee, I'd rather like to add some kind of fees for using the UIA if possible. For example, an issuer pay 10000 BTS in advance, so the users can make transfers of that UIA for free for a month or so.

//Edit:
Business partners want their users to have better experience of their product, but it's not free, they need to pay for it. Imo it's a win-win.

the point is, this would not prefent spaming, so how does we prefent this?

if we find a solution for this, we can lower the placing fees and just redirect some fees from the UIA fees to the bitshares network.

[bitacer]

The major problem -- which is actually in itself not a problem-- that the is not enough PR out there to explain bitshares, one of the reason seems to me is that everybody is still busy building and perfecting the product. Once that is eased a little , some resources should be allocated to advertising and displaying some real use cases. We all see what PR can achieve just as in DASH or some other products out there. None of them actually has what BitShares has.

[clayop]

I found many business runners (bitcrab, monsterer, kencode, and potentially me) are raising issue about high fees. Lower fee may not significantly attract users, but it incentivizes entrepreneurs who actually provide utility for users.
One could easily say that the network cannot be profitable with low fee system. But are we really able to profitable without broader utilities and large user bases? I doubt this.

We should listen real business runners' voice. This is really important for our ecosystem.

the community choose high fees, because of the referral program. the question is always the chicken and egg problem and how the "customers" feel and like our system.

if i am a poloniex user it feels strange to pay for placing orders, the question is, does the user care or know it? maybe not. i am a regular user of both, poloniex and bitshares and
i do not care how the fees are paid. so, i dont know if this is really a problem, or do we just feel this is a problem.

how does other feel about it? did anyone talk with traders about it?

I'm a kind of trader (more prone to DEX) too. I feel the current fee system of DEX makes no sense.
We can only justify a small fraction of fees (like 0.5~1 BTS for order creation and 0~0.1 BTS for cancellation) to prevent spam. That's all. UIAs already have percentage based fees, and BTS and other bitassets can have percentage based fees if committee approves (but it is needed to be distributed to referrers via BSIP4)

[abit]

Something similar to bitmessage ..
But how would BTS ever be profitable then? We end up having a token that you can only use as collateral and has no other benefits .. am i missing something?

IMHO, being able to trade on a decentralized exchange is worth a small fee for transfers/orders etc .. but I can understand the issue people are having with it

charge UIA creation , etc for a higher fee .
one sale of UIA beats fee from 1000 traders .

Basically I agree with this idea.
The system needs fees. If the fees don't come from users, then it should come from the business partners.
Instead of increasing UIA creation fee, I'd rather like to add some kind of fees for using the UIA if possible. For example, an issuer pay 10000 BTS in advance, so the users can make transfers of that UIA for free for a month or so.

//Edit:
Business partners want their users to have better experience of their product, but it's not free, they need to pay for it. Imo it's a win-win.

[monsterer]

i do not care how the fees are paid. so, i dont know if this is really a problem, or do we just feel this is a problem.

how does other feel about it? did anyone talk with traders about it?

The thing is, you know already that your order is getting placed on a DEX, so you don't mind. If an exchange comes and wants to decentralise their business, their existing users will not be happy having to suddenly pay a fee to place/cancel an order when they didn't have to previously.

[monsterer]

Do you know about the MAKER proposal to pay a fraction of market fees to those that make a market? I think it is called BSIP#6

Yes, I do. This doesn't address the problem for users placing / cancelling an order on the DEX compared to the cost free nature of a centralised exchange.

[Shentist]

I found many business runners (bitcrab, monsterer, kencode, and potentially me) are raising issue about high fees. Lower fee may not significantly attract users, but it incentivizes entrepreneurs who actually provide utility for users.
One could easily say that the network cannot be profitable with low fee system. But are we really able to profitable without broader utilities and large user bases? I doubt this.

We should listen real business runners' voice. This is really important for our ecosystem.

the community choose high fees, because of the referral program. the question is always the chicken and egg problem and how the "customers" feel and like our system.

if i am a poloniex user it feels strange to pay for placing orders, the question is, does the user care or know it? maybe not. i am a regular user of both, poloniex and bitshares and
i do not care how the fees are paid. so, i dont know if this is really a problem, or do we just feel this is a problem.

how does other feel about it? did anyone talk with traders about it?

[btswildpig]

Something similar to bitmessage ..
But how would BTS ever be profitable then? We end up having a token that you can only use as collateral and has no other benefits .. am i missing something?

IMHO, being able to trade on a decentralized exchange is worth a small fee for transfers/orders etc .. but I can understand the issue people are having with it

charge UIA creation , etc for a higher fee .
one sale of UIA beats fee from 1000 traders .

[abit]

so for placing orders we would need a kind of POW to prefend spaming.

but how would this works if i just place my order and then close my wallet?

could we combine it with POS, if you have x amount on your account you can do x orderplacings for free x seconds/minutes or so?

lets say i hold 1.000.000 BTS and i place a buy order for 1 BTC , because i hold 1m BTS i have x orders for free X amount of time.

or

we create something like a discount. if you have filled orders you get a token/UIA, if you have this token your placing an order is free and
the token will automatically removed from your account. should be already possible i think.

just some random ideas.

The token is now BTS.

If placing order fee is 1 BTS, is it good for you?

I'm OK with current order placing fees, since it's refunded when order got cancelled. However I'm not a trader.

[monsterer]

so for placing orders we would need a kind of POW to prefend spaming.

but how would this works if i just place my order and then close my wallet?

The PoW required must be solved before the transaction can be sent - the difficulty can be low enough that this takes under a second on a laptop.