Author Topic: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal  (Read 48795 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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BTS referrer program bring a price more higher than reasonable, no referral will be happy if he get known the price is so high and 80% are paid to the referrer. on the other hand, it's not easy for the referrer to recommend a product/service with so high price.

please understand why Chinese are sensitive to the price, China is a country where alipay is free, wechat payment is free, most inter bank transfers are free.
I have discussed the reasonable transfer fee above, for BTS the reasonable transfer fee can be 2-5 BTS.

fee are the renenues of the network, but also are costs of shareholders/users. transfer fee are friction, friction always slow down economy.

in the updated plan, there will be 3 mode, both mode A and mode C are flat fee, but for A the fee totally go to network, for C referrer will take 80%, the flat fee will be set by committee, but I think A will own a lower fee than B. BTS is the fundamental asset in the system, need to be applied mode A with transfer fee as low as possible.

for public smartcoins, as now there are privatized smartcoins, so its ok for public smartcoins to be applied mode B. users do not like referral program/high fee can play with privatized smartcoins.
Some logical reasoning:
1) If A is free to choice, why people choose C? So Fee of A should be lower than C for non-LTMs, but higher than C for LTMs.
2) based on 1), if volume raises of doesn't change, choosing A means the network will gain some, referral program and LTMs will loss some, and probably the asset issuer will gain some. To be fair, the network and the issuer need to compensate the referral program and LTMs in some way.

why need to compensate referral program?
the referral program + high fee cause a lot of old users leave, should referral program compensate the whole system?
Can you proof your claim?
The purpose of the referral program is to motivate business to attract new users. It never was the idea to pay the "whole system" (whatever you mean by it)

then do you mean because there is a referral program, so we cannot have a mode A?
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Offline xeroc

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BTS referrer program bring a price more higher than reasonable, no referral will be happy if he get known the price is so high and 80% are paid to the referrer. on the other hand, it's not easy for the referrer to recommend a product/service with so high price.

please understand why Chinese are sensitive to the price, China is a country where alipay is free, wechat payment is free, most inter bank transfers are free.
I have discussed the reasonable transfer fee above, for BTS the reasonable transfer fee can be 2-5 BTS.

fee are the renenues of the network, but also are costs of shareholders/users. transfer fee are friction, friction always slow down economy.

in the updated plan, there will be 3 mode, both mode A and mode C are flat fee, but for A the fee totally go to network, for C referrer will take 80%, the flat fee will be set by committee, but I think A will own a lower fee than B. BTS is the fundamental asset in the system, need to be applied mode A with transfer fee as low as possible.

for public smartcoins, as now there are privatized smartcoins, so its ok for public smartcoins to be applied mode B. users do not like referral program/high fee can play with privatized smartcoins.
Some logical reasoning:
1) If A is free to choice, why people choose C? So Fee of A should be lower than C for non-LTMs, but higher than C for LTMs.
2) based on 1), if volume raises of doesn't change, choosing A means the network will gain some, referral program and LTMs will loss some, and probably the asset issuer will gain some. To be fair, the network and the issuer need to compensate the referral program and LTMs in some way.

why need to compensate referral program?
the referral program + high fee cause a lot of old users leave, should referral program compensate the whole system?
Can you proof your claim?
The purpose of the referral program is to motivate business to attract new users. It never was the idea to pay the "whole system" (whatever you mean by it)

Offline bitcrab

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BTS referrer program bring a price more higher than reasonable, no referral will be happy if he get known the price is so high and 80% are paid to the referrer. on the other hand, it's not easy for the referrer to recommend a product/service with so high price.

please understand why Chinese are sensitive to the price, China is a country where alipay is free, wechat payment is free, most inter bank transfers are free.
I have discussed the reasonable transfer fee above, for BTS the reasonable transfer fee can be 2-5 BTS.

fee are the renenues of the network, but also are costs of shareholders/users. transfer fee are friction, friction always slow down economy.

in the updated plan, there will be 3 mode, both mode A and mode C are flat fee, but for A the fee totally go to network, for C referrer will take 80%, the flat fee will be set by committee, but I think A will own a lower fee than B. BTS is the fundamental asset in the system, need to be applied mode A with transfer fee as low as possible.

for public smartcoins, as now there are privatized smartcoins, so its ok for public smartcoins to be applied mode B. users do not like referral program/high fee can play with privatized smartcoins.
Some logical reasoning:
1) If A is free to choice, why people choose C? So Fee of A should be lower than C for non-LTMs, but higher than C for LTMs.
2) based on 1), if volume raises of doesn't change, choosing A means the network will gain some, referral program and LTMs will loss some, and probably the asset issuer will gain some. To be fair, the network and the issuer need to compensate the referral program and LTMs in some way.

why need to compensate referral program?
the referral program + high fee cause a lot of old users leave, should referral program compensate the whole system?
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Offline merivercap

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With current percentage-based fee designation, set CER of your assets to 0.00001BTS, set the floor to 1-5 BTS, the result will be same to your proposal.

I don't think this is a good way, especially for the privatized smartcoins which has a feed price dependent CER, seems a independent mode for this is needed.

So with your proposal we come to 3 modes. The one which is missing in your proposal is CURRENT MODE:

Mode C: flat fee, 80% to referral program and 20% to network.

IMHO don't eliminate any other possibilities when you want to add your (new) options, and don't change default behavior unless the stake holders agreed. It will make the things easier to get more progress.

If we have 3 modes implemented, the committee would be able to decide which mode BTS and/or smart coins will have.

I'm capable for implementing the new mode you proposed, and I'm willing to do it if well funded.

if we have 3 mode, then the flat fee in mode A and C can be set independently, right?
and the budget will rise if there will be 3 modes? then how much? ;)
I have an estimation of 1M BTS of my work, so maybe 1.5M BTS in total.

I'd like to emphasize again that fee rates can only be set by the committee, and issuers can only choose among the fee modes.

I'm willing to implement per-asset fee rates, however it would be funded via FBA, so won't come in the soon future.

Wouldn't it mainly make sense to implement this all with per-asset free rates?  Can the committee choose multiple fee rates upon request and can issuers just select among more choices or is it just one fee rate per mode?  I don't expect the US and China to use the same fee structure.  However for CNY they can choose mode A and in the US we can have mode B at 1% and some min/max... maybe we can start with that before implementing per-asset fee rates.     I'm planning a privatized bitAsset so I'd prefer mode B, but if it's not flexible I'll probably do C until we can implement per-asset fee rates. 
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Offline abit

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BTS referrer program bring a price more higher than reasonable, no referral will be happy if he get known the price is so high and 80% are paid to the referrer. on the other hand, it's not easy for the referrer to recommend a product/service with so high price.

please understand why Chinese are sensitive to the price, China is a country where alipay is free, wechat payment is free, most inter bank transfers are free.
I have discussed the reasonable transfer fee above, for BTS the reasonable transfer fee can be 2-5 BTS.

fee are the renenues of the network, but also are costs of shareholders/users. transfer fee are friction, friction always slow down economy.

in the updated plan, there will be 3 mode, both mode A and mode C are flat fee, but for A the fee totally go to network, for C referrer will take 80%, the flat fee will be set by committee, but I think A will own a lower fee than B. BTS is the fundamental asset in the system, need to be applied mode A with transfer fee as low as possible.

for public smartcoins, as now there are privatized smartcoins, so its ok for public smartcoins to be applied mode B. users do not like referral program/high fee can play with privatized smartcoins.
Some logical reasoning:
1) If A is free to choice, why people choose C? So Fee of A should be lower than C for non-LTMs, but higher than C for LTMs.
2) based on 1), if volume raises of doesn't change, choosing A means the network will gain some, referral program and LTMs will loss some, and probably the asset issuer will gain some. To be fair, the network and the issuer need to compensate the referral program and LTMs in some way.
3) Or let A to be non-free to choice, say, someone need to pay for choosing A, then who pays? To whom? How much? One time payments or periodically payments?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 11:43:17 am by abit »
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Offline bitcrab

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Again, as usual, you ignore everyone else's points but your own. You are MY B*TCH, not the other way around, boy. Answer at least ONE question, and be sincere. Are you scared?
 
the current BTS referral program are not welcomed in China.

 
Obviously the referral program is not welcomed by YOU, but how EXACTLY, could you possibly know what the entire Chinese population wants?

if you keep on being so dirty and rude, I can only ignore you.
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Offline kenCode

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Again, as usual, you ignore everyone else's points but your own. You are MY B*TCH, not the other way around, boy. Answer at least ONE question, and be sincere. Are you scared?
 
the current BTS referral program are not welcomed in China.

 
Obviously the referral program is not welcomed by YOU, but how EXACTLY, could you possibly know what the entire Chinese population wants?
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Offline bitcrab

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the current BTS referral program are not welcomed in China.

How the f*ck would you know? Or.... the referral program is not welcomed by YOU?
 
Get real. Go out, hit the streets, take an honest poll of the Chinese people en masse. Ask them if they would like to receive $50 for every lifetime member that they sign up. Go to a college campus and have some kids go out and canvas with you.
 
Get out there in the real world and see how many people you can talk to about Bitshares, get them excited, start a Meetup group, show them the mobile wallet, send them 100 BTS, get them signed up on ccedk.com or OL, shake some hands, encourage others to do the same.
 
Your hubris far outweighs my ability to describe it.

seems you understand China more well than I do.
every one know who is more hubris.
I try to find some consensus with sincerity, if it is rejected roughly, the only way is to get the result by voting.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 10:17:59 am by bitcrab »
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Offline clayop

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Supply... Demand... Price...

What are we providing now?

Is there demands for our service?

I would support btsdacs idea.. Under low tps we'd better have low fees. When tps is high, higher fee is allowable.
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Offline kenCode

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the current BTS referral program are not welcomed in China.

How the f*ck would you know? Or.... the referral program is not welcomed by YOU?
 
Get real. Go out, hit the streets, take an honest poll of the Chinese people en masse. Ask them if they would like to receive $50 for every lifetime member that they sign up. Go to a college campus and have some kids go out and canvas with you.
 
Get out there in the real world and see how many people you can talk to about Bitshares, get them excited, start a Meetup group, show them the mobile wallet, send them 100 BTS, get them signed up on ccedk.com or OL, shake some hands, encourage others to do the same.
 
Your hubris far outweighs my ability to describe it.
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Offline bitcrab

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I am trying to understand.  You seem to be saying that you have a fundamental problem with the referral program.  Are there really not any similar systems in China?  There are so many in the United States.  Near my house there is a sporting association.  They have a pistol range, rifle range, skeet shooting, and trap.  Its open to the public at a certain price, but members get a greatly reduced rate.  So a day of shooting trap might cost me $40 as a member, but would cost a non member $120. 

Why do you think the Chinese community is not interested in attempting to earn through the referral program?  We have a member of our community draining fee pools 10bts at a time.  Surely the referral program is better than picking up pennies from the "give a penny leave a penny" tray. 

I also have a hard time reconciling the wish to prevent dilution, and the wish to reduce the earnings of the network.  The fees collected by the network help offset the dilution that we pay our witnesses and workers with.  The account upgrade fee is one of the most important. 

A quick count of upgrades shows 295 since launch, including 45 in the last month alone.  That is equivalent 900,000 bts spent in the last month on this one single operation.  Even if you assume that every upgrade was a newly registered account, and thus not referred by the committee that is 180,000 bts earned by the network in the last 30 days because 45 people found enough value in upgrading. 

In contrast at the current rate of about 200 transfers a day , and 30 bts per transfer it would take about 5 months to earn for the network what account upgrade earned in the last month.  I would really like to see more in depth fee information.  I wonder if cryptofresh has compiled any of that information

Before I could accept your proposal to remove the referral program from bts but keep it on bitassets, I would need to see some evidence that this would be best for the network.  I am open to the idea, but at this point I really don't see it.

edit.  spaced the content out to aid in reading.

I am not saying all the referral program do not work in China, I only said the current BTS referral program are not welcomed in China.

BTS referrer program bring a price more higher than reasonable, no referral will be happy if he get known the price is so high and 80% are paid to the referrer. on the other hand, it's not easy for the referrer to recommend a product/service with so high price.

please understand why Chinese are sensitive to the price, China is a country where alipay is free, wechat payment is free, most inter bank transfers are free.
I have discussed the reasonable transfer fee above, for BTS the reasonable transfer fee can be 2-5 BTS.

fee are the renenues of the network, but also are costs of shareholders/users. transfer fee are friction, friction always slow down economy.

in the updated plan, there will be 3 mode, both mode A and mode C are flat fee, but for A the fee totally go to network, for C referrer will take 80%, the flat fee will be set by committee, but I think A will own a lower fee than B. BTS is the fundamental asset in the system, need to be applied mode A with transfer fee as low as possible.

for public smartcoins, as now there are privatized smartcoins, so its ok for public smartcoins to be applied mode B. users do not like referral program/high fee can play with privatized smartcoins. 





 






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Offline abit

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With current percentage-based fee designation, set CER of your assets to 0.00001BTS, set the floor to 1-5 BTS, the result will be same to your proposal.

I don't think this is a good way, especially for the privatized smartcoins which has a feed price dependent CER, seems a independent mode for this is needed.

So with your proposal we come to 3 modes. The one which is missing in your proposal is CURRENT MODE:

Mode C: flat fee, 80% to referral program and 20% to network.

IMHO don't eliminate any other possibilities when you want to add your (new) options, and don't change default behavior unless the stake holders agreed. It will make the things easier to get more progress.

If we have 3 modes implemented, the committee would be able to decide which mode BTS and/or smart coins will have.

I'm capable for implementing the new mode you proposed, and I'm willing to do it if well funded.

if we have 3 mode, then the flat fee in mode A and C can be set independently, right?
and the budget will rise if there will be 3 modes? then how much? ;)
I have an estimation of 1M BTS of my work, so maybe 1.5M BTS in total.

I'd like to emphasize again that fee rates can only be set by the committee, and issuers can only choose among the fee modes.

I'm willing to implement per-asset fee rates, however it would be funded via FBA, so won't come in the soon future.
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Offline abit

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I am trying to understand.  You seem to be saying that you have a fundamental problem with the referral program.  Are there really not any similar systems in China?  There are so many in the United States.  Near my house there is a sporting association.  They have a pistol range, rifle range, skeet shooting, and trap.  Its open to the public at a certain price, but members get a greatly reduced rate.  So a day of shooting trap might cost me $40 as a member, but would cost a non member $120. 
In China, there are also many this kind of shops, a typical case is barbershop. Every time in a barbershop, the barber (hired by the shop owner) endlessly suggest you to buy a membership to get more discount and they can earn some referral income. Some people tend to buy it, but others don't, because many owners of these kind of shops just run away after collected a large amount of prepaid fee, and usually it's hard for the customers to get back the prepaid fee. Bigger shops are more unlikely to run away with customers' money, so their memberships are easier to sell. But negative examples are too many.
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Offline bitcrab

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With current percentage-based fee designation, set CER of your assets to 0.00001BTS, set the floor to 1-5 BTS, the result will be same to your proposal.

I don't think this is a good way, especially for the privatized smartcoins which has a feed price dependent CER, seems a independent mode for this is needed.

So with your proposal we come to 3 modes. The one which is missing in your proposal is CURRENT MODE:

Mode C: flat fee, 80% to referral program and 20% to network.

IMHO don't eliminate any other possibilities when you want to add your (new) options, and don't change default behavior unless the stake holders agreed. It will make the things easier to get more progress.

If we have 3 modes implemented, the committee would be able to decide which mode BTS and/or smart coins will have.

I'm capable for implementing the new mode you proposed, and I'm willing to do it if well funded.

if we have 3 mode, then the flat fee in mode A and C can be set independently, right?
and the budget will rise if there will be 3 modes? then how much? ;)
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Offline xeroc

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below is the data of the transfer fee of the top12 cryptocoins in coinmarketcap:



some info:
1. the average transfer fee is $0.01.
2. the top3 high fee coins are MaidSafeCoin, Bitshares and Factom. however the other 2 are both coins for special functions - MaidSafe is for distributed storage and Factom is for notarization.

it is said that BM has said(not confirmed yet) in recent mumble session that in order to cover costs and prevent spam, the minimum fee should be $0.005-0.01

to calculate the cost of 1 transfer is not easy, it depend on several factors, especially the TPS, so now I just take BM's conclusion, if anyone has better result, please kindly share.

upon the above data, I give 2 areas for reasonable transfer fee on Bitshares platform for reference: the wider one: 1BTS-10BTS, the narrower one: 2BTS-5BTS.

It's useless to make comparisons with unsustainable systems. The real costs of bitcoin transactions are much higher because they are funded with inflation.

And also it's useless to think what the transaction cost should be in BTS, because it is meant to be calculated in USD (or in other fiat currency) and it's committee's job to adjust BTS price of transaction based on the fiat price. So this whole poll is pointless. The poll should be on USD price, not BTS price. This is again a clear sign that you don't understand how Bitshares works or is supposed to work.
This!

And i have the code and a proposal in the pipeline. Ready ro be released soonish