Liquidity, smartcoins, dilution and competitors

[Samupaha]

Well .. I agree ..
and IMHO this all breaks down to our failure in selling and marketing our shit.
If every shareholder put as much time into marketing and talking about BTS as they do in voting and talking about "dilution", we could have way more presence everywhere.
But the fact is that NO ONE cares about us as NO ONE knows about us ..

We have some good stuff coming. Stealth and rate limited free transactions offer a great opportunity to get going with full speed with marketing. General crypto audience is usually interested in anything new and we have an opportunity to represent Bitshares as leading innovator with new and useful features.

I suggest that we finally try to do the marketing thing right and see where it takes us. Let's show for antidilutionists that they are simply wrong. Most important thing is users and the only way to get new users is to market our blockchain.

At least I will try to do anything I can. I'll probably lose my job in a month so I'll have a lot of time to spend on this (if I've remember right the rate limited free transactions will take probably at least a month or two?). I already have some ideas what should be done.

If we don't take opportunities like this, Bitshares will never gain any meaningful traction. Let's not screw things up this time.

[tbone]

We should be moving full speed ahead with these initiatives.  Not doing so is killing the speculative value of BTS. 

This is more important than you think.  Liquidity incentives, the bond market, and a nice interface for the prediction and binary options markets needs to be done yesterday.  The dilution myth has been thoroughly debunked.

I'm with you 100% on that.  As I mentioned on another thread, I think if we combine @Empirical1.2 's yield harvesting proposal (link below) with either market maker rewards or a liquidity pool, we'll really be cooking with gas.  Please take a look and serious consider supporting his proposal.  The costs are low and the rewards are substantial.  We need the rational actors around there to start coalescing around a smart idea like this. 

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21597.0.html

[btstip]

Hey chryspano, here are the results of your tips...

• tonyk: has been credited 100 BROWNIE.PTS

Curious about ShareBits? Visit us at http://sharebits.io and start tipping BTS on https://bitsharestalk.org/ today!

Source: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21591.msg281381/topicseen.html#msg281381

Created by hybridd

[chryspano]

  to your post @tarantulaz

I don't know what the merger is. Could someone please link me to it?

I have no links available but the merger was the allocation of 500M BTS in a vesting period of 2 years to holders of PTS, AGS, VOTE, DNS the idea was to merge all chains and features in one(BTS)  and avoid competition between ourselfes(different chains) 500M / 24 months = 20,83 m bts/month. As I said before we are almost at the end of the merger with 8 months remaining, probably some people seeing that they run out of time and the price not going any lower decided to put their masks off, one last asault to bring bts price to it's knees.

@tonyk Look at NXT! Look at it man. They have no inflation. 0!!! FUCKING 0. Look at their asset exchange. Illiquid. They are losing people, even if they have a fairly good currency and their assets are worth a lot more than the ones on Bitshares. Look at Bitcoin! The miners control everything and the coin is losing its value. But they profit more by the fact that its value falls! Less miners joining and they keep their costs low, sacrifising Bitcoin's health. Do you even get what abit is developing? 0 fees. ZERO. Micropayments will be available for people. Isn't that something worth paying for? I guess not. Useless. @abit please stop developing. You are an idiot abit. Or please do it for free. Free. I like getting but not giving. I <3 capitalism.

Don't waste much of your time with tonyk, this guy either holds zero bts right now and seeks to get in again at a lower price than he sold or he only cares about trading, when he sells and the price goes up it's time for some FUD, buisness as usual. After newmine, a well known and respected troll and FUDer left our forum, a lot of his work falls now on Tonyk's shoulders. Good work so far Tonyk! Here are some brownies...
#sharebits tonyk 100 BROWNIE.PTS

[morpheus]

We should be moving full speed ahead with these initiatives.  Not doing so is killing the speculative value of BTS. 

This is more important than you think.  Liquidity incentives, the bond market, and a nice interface for the prediction and binary options markets needs to be done yesterday.  The dilution myth has been thoroughly debunked. 

[xeroc]

I don't know what the merger is. Could someone please link me to it?

I thought of things a lot before coming home and I have to clarify a few things. I was quite upset and now that I got back I am even more upset with what I've read. I thought of telling @abit to stop any developement right now. This is getting ridiculous. There is no point for him to develop anything, as I don't think that will ever get paid for any current or future work. The same goes for the developer of cryptofresh (sorry I don't know the username). People really rely on people like abit to see their investments grow, without paying a penny for the development. As Max Keiser says, I'll call you Jihadists. You are J I H A D I S T S. You want to see the project die just to make sure you don't lose money short term. You don't even lose money by the way. You are just useless speculators. If you can't stomach it, do what @Empirical1.2 is doing. Hold no shares. Please give us all your shares so that we can see this project grow.

By the way, there is a new project called Lisk that will use DPOS and Ethereums blockchain. Let's see what we'll do without development against them. I already joined their ICO and in the first day they raised more than 700BTC and they started a day ago. They can take everything that has been built on Bitshares and make it even better - in the way they want and with more funds.

Please understand what the network effect is. Everyone is talking about it. I bet BM is sick of mentioning it all the time just because some people don't get it. We need people to come in. The buy pressure from people coming in because of the liquidity or the interest will be way higher than what we'll pay.

@tonyk Look at NXT! Look at it man. They have no inflation. 0!!! FUCKING 0. Look at their asset exchange. Illiquid. They are losing people, even if they have a fairly good currency and their assets are worth a lot more than the ones on Bitshares. Look at Bitcoin! The miners control everything and the coin is losing its value. But they profit more by the fact that its value falls! Less miners joining and they keep their costs low, sacrifising Bitcoin's health. Do you even get what abit is developing? 0 fees. ZERO. Micropayments will be available for people. Isn't that something worth paying for? I guess not. Useless. @abit please stop developing. You are an idiot abit. Or please do it for free. Free. I like getting but not giving. I <3 capitalism.

Whoever said that we are a lot better than are competitors just made me laugh a lot. No we are not. Dash is currently available to fund straight away ~32K$ a month, to anyone that gets voted. Not by a few delegates, but by 3500. I used to think that we are better, but after I realised how the big holders of Bitshares don't understand the concept of sacrifise. My advice is to play some online videogame in a team or even better some chess. It will open your eyes.

PS that thing with the selling volume was a bit off. Even when the price went down to ~400satoshi's which was 50% drop, it came back to ~700 which was less than a 10% loss. Also when you refer to people selling all the shares, think just of two things. Do bitcoin miners sell all their coins? No. At least not all of them. If you get 100shares, can you sell more than 100? If you have some money aside though or if you have low costs, you can save 10shares. There is no way to sell more shares than you earn, but you can keep some. Simple.

Edit

I forgot to mention that I've lost a lot of value as I purchased when we were around the 2000 sats and sold half of them for 25% less. One of the reasons that I stayed, was the promise of the 77k$ development funds. I thought that could easily destroy any competitor long term. I was wrong, as I was very wrong not to read the forum about many of the false promises on the main website.

As about dash, 13% inflation and they have 2.5 times bigger market cap. But we are doing everything perfectly, they are shit.

Well .. I agree ..
and IMHO this all breaks down to our failure in selling and marketing our shit.
If every shareholder put as much time into marketing and talking about BTS as they do in voting and talking about "dilution", we could have way more presence everywhere.
But the fact is that NO ONE cares about us as NO ONE knows about us ..

[tarantulaz]

I don't know what the merger is. Could someone please link me to it?

I thought of things a lot before coming home and I have to clarify a few things. I was quite upset and now that I got back I am even more upset with what I've read. I thought of telling @abit to stop any developement right now. This is getting ridiculous. There is no point for him to develop anything, as I don't think that will ever get paid for any current or future work. The same goes for the developer of cryptofresh (sorry I don't know the username). People really rely on people like abit to see their investments grow, without paying a penny for the development. As Max Keiser says, I'll call you Jihadists. You are J I H A D I S T S. You want to see the project die just to make sure you don't lose money short term. You don't even lose money by the way. You are just useless speculators. If you can't stomach it, do what @Empirical1.2 is doing. Hold no shares. Please give us all your shares so that we can see this project grow.

By the way, there is a new project called Lisk that will use DPOS and Ethereums blockchain. Let's see what we'll do without development against them. I already joined their ICO and in the first day they raised more than 700BTC and they started a day ago. They can take everything that has been built on Bitshares and make it even better - in the way they want and with more funds.

Please understand what the network effect is. Everyone is talking about it. I bet BM is sick of mentioning it all the time just because some people don't get it. We need people to come in. The buy pressure from people coming in because of the liquidity or the interest will be way higher than what we'll pay.

@tonyk Look at NXT! Look at it man. They have no inflation. 0!!! FUCKING 0. Look at their asset exchange. Illiquid. They are losing people, even if they have a fairly good currency and their assets are worth a lot more than the ones on Bitshares. Look at Bitcoin! The miners control everything and the coin is losing its value. But they profit more by the fact that its value falls! Less miners joining and they keep their costs low, sacrifising Bitcoin's health. Do you even get what abit is developing? 0 fees. ZERO. Micropayments will be available for people. Isn't that something worth paying for? I guess not. Useless. @abit please stop developing. You are an idiot abit. Or please do it for free. Free. I like getting but not giving. I <3 capitalism.

Whoever said that we are a lot better than are competitors just made me laugh a lot. No we are not. Dash is currently available to fund straight away ~32K$ a month, to anyone that gets voted. Not by a few delegates, but by 3500. I used to think that we are better, but after I realised how the big holders of Bitshares don't understand the concept of sacrifise. My advice is to play some online videogame in a team or even better some chess. It will open your eyes.

PS that thing with the selling volume was a bit off. Even when the price went down to ~400satoshi's which was 50% drop, it came back to ~700 which was less than a 10% loss. Also when you refer to people selling all the shares, think just of two things. Do bitcoin miners sell all their coins? No. At least not all of them. If you get 100shares, can you sell more than 100? If you have some money aside though or if you have low costs, you can save 10shares. There is no way to sell more shares than you earn, but you can keep some. Simple.

Edit

I forgot to mention that I've lost a lot of value as I purchased when we were around the 2000 sats and sold half of them for 25% less. One of the reasons that I stayed, was the promise of the 77k$ development funds. I thought that could easily destroy any competitor long term. I was wrong, as I was very wrong not to read the forum about many of the false promises on the main website.

As about dash, 13% inflation and they have 2.5 times bigger market cap. But we are doing everything perfectly, they are shit.

[tbone]

There is no d word... dilution is misnomer for btc and BTS...Let's assume I believe this (just because there is cap), and everyone else should/ is as well.

BUT

There are 23,000,000 new BTS entering into circulation each month.

23 Mil BTS needed to be absorbed by new money entering the system just so the price stays the same...

Do you think that on average 90,000 K USD are entering/buying into BTS every month right now?

 

Wait what? I think some of these numbers are wrong or I didn't get what you actually meant. First of all, if 23,000,000 new BTS entered into circulation each month the funds would be depleted in 5 years, with an inflation ~10% per year.

https://bitshares.org/technology/stakeholder-approved-project-funding/ This is the max we can use, please link me to another source if that's wrong.

You've got to understand @tonyk , that by increasing the liquidity or incentivising people to hold bts, you are going to earn a lot more. Offering a 2.5% a year, for people to hold BTS is nothing. How many people are going to lock their funds or trade? 30% of the users? 50%? then you have 1.25% of actual inflation (dilution). This way you destroy the sell wall. Even one whale a month. Just one, that would hold their funds, would buy those 50k$ worth of shares.

And again, 90k$ a month (which is the wrong number), is nothing compared to the average trading volume which is more than 90k$.

I've followed NXT, I've followed Dash, I've followed NuBits, I own some too. But this community superior in every fucking sense. People are working on projects, expecting to be paid after they completed the work and you don't want to pay them? There are so many good things that can be done and you are rejecting these ideas. So BM is a moron and retard that is offering some feautures for free.

Let's say that BM isn't doing anything for free, that's why he got CNX formed etc etc. If BM didn't expect his shares price to rise by implementing that liquidity model, would he do it that for free? Do you think that CNX and those people own no shares? Or the people who are in this community? Please see the bigger picture and don't get stuck with some potential initial loses.

My numbers tend to be right... unfortunately.
Other people might tell you there is 6% dilution per year... but that is the long term print rate...
Read the above post.. there is a shit load of other new BTS coming into the market that are not counted in thier calculations...for the convenience of the poster...or just cause "they will end in meager 8 mo."
Those alone will be netting 100 mil or 160 mil new BTS.

PS
and do not get me started on trading volume... you think more than 3% are actual final buys/sells?
I can show you trading volume of 10x the market cap of a coin...or (if you really pay me)  I can show you I day where I traded 75 BTC and started and ended with a position of ~ 0.5-1.0 BTC worth of that coin.

You're hilarious, tony.  The MAXIMUM dilution rate is 432,000 BTS per day, or ~13M BTS per month.  At today's prices, that's about $53k/month, or $1800/day.  And we're only spending a small fraction of that.  Fact is, @tarantulaz caught you in a lie, and instead of at least saying you made a mistake, you stuck to your guns without backing up your numbers.  All you did was give a circular reference i.e. "see above post" which of course contained nothing but your original empty claim.  And then for good measure, you threw in some obfuscation by going on and on about how you could teach us things about trading volume.  Cut the crap, tony.

Our dilution rate, which is minimal, barely contributes to sell pressure.  A MUCH bigger factor is the 21M BTS/month from the merger, which is coming to an end in a matter of months, as @chryspano has pointed out.  But even THAT is not a huge number compared to the biggest factor causing sell pressure over the last couple of years, which has been the crypto bear market. 

Given the competitive, fast-paced environment of crypto, we need to continue building and maintaining our product or we will not be able to compete which will ultimately lead to zero demand for BTS.  So it's incredibly foolish to skimp on development work, which causes minimal dilution and contributes almost ZERO to sell pressure.  Why is this difficult for a segment of our community to understand?  It really doesn't take a genius.

Tony is referring to/or including the merger in his 23 million statement.

How much dilution we can support is partly determined by how much new average demand for BTS there is & how much BTS buy support there is, as opposed to just looking at our current valuation.

Unlike a crypto-currency, where the share is the product, BTS doesn't have a product that is in demand yet, so there is no actual buy support, but rather only speculative investment and the buy walls on Polo and BTC38 are very low. 

So the combination of Merger sell pressure, dilution for development but no product that is in demand yet is very price suppressive.

While we constantly develop nice to have features in the $30-50k range (partly to sustain CNX overheads) that aren't actual products, (Dice for example would be a product) it creates a negative cycle where speculators see the constant sell pressure but little prospect of new demand on the horizon and so they are inclined to sell too & let other shareholders support the price in the 'still developing our popular product' stage. 

For example, I personally intend to hold fairly little BTS until we get closer to the merger dilution coming to an end or until we implement something that I believe will create net new demand for BTS now as opposed to some time in the future. (I personally think dilution for yield will do that.)


Edit

If you look at most of the alts above and around us, I don't think the issue is that they are outpacing us with development and yet they are outperforming. We have a great product that maybe needs a bit of tweaking, Smartcoins, so if we're going to use dilution imo it should be to bootstrap and create demand for that product. Demand for Smartcoins will give us the capability to develop more nice to have or really cool features in other areas.

I think everything is speculative in crypto for the foreseeable future.  Actual revenues won't matter for some time, only perception of future usefulness that might lead to revenue some day.  So the fact that our product is currently not in demand by enough people is hurting the speculative value of BTS.  Time won't change that, taking action will.  That means spending funds on workers.  Such spending will contribute relatively very little to sell pressure, but greatly to speculative value if it means what we offer becomes more useful.  I am 100% in favor of incentivizing smartcoin creation and would love to implement your yield harvesting proposal.  We also need to incentivize liquidity.  And make the DEX more useful.  Free (rate limited) transfers would be helpful.  And what about a bond market?  We should be moving full speed ahead with these initiatives.  Not doing so is killing the speculative value of BTS.  Something tells me that's what some people here want.

[abit]

Current daily budget ~= 360K including witness pay. You should take a look on this https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/issues/569.

Ok, but how much of that ~360k daily budget is actually dilutive (i.e. not going back to the reserve pool)?  It looks like less than 200k (correct me if I'm wrong).  Again, that is a TINY number in terms of contribution to sell pressure in the grand scheme of things.   

Hourly budget is a linear function of amount of remaining fund in reserve pool. So the more fund in reserve pool, the more fund can be used everyday.

hourly budget = (remaining funds in reserve pool) * 3600 * 17 / 2^32

You make it sound like the funds to be used can grow without limits.  No, the size of the reserve is limited to 1.2B, which means the MAXIMUM worker dilution numbers I gave are correct. 

Theoretically the limit of reserve pool is ~3.6B, if all stake holders "use up" their stakes (for example register lots of short asset names), all stakes will go back to reserve pool.

Indeed, it is not possible to spend more than 12M BTS per month, which equates to about $1700 per day (which we are currently spending less than half of).  Again, these amounts contribute only a TINY amount of sell pressure relative to merger shares vesting and, more significantly, general crypto market sentiment which has been bearish for most of the past 2 years. 

The point is, we have a vocal segment of the community that is woefully uneducated about these realities.  And it is hurting our ability to do the kind of investment required to gain traction in the market and remain relevant in the long term.  And again, if they cannot be educated, they need to be jettisoned or at least marginalized.

[Empirical1.2]

There is no d word... dilution is misnomer for btc and BTS...Let's assume I believe this (just because there is cap), and everyone else should/ is as well.

BUT

There are 23,000,000 new BTS entering into circulation each month.

23 Mil BTS needed to be absorbed by new money entering the system just so the price stays the same...

Do you think that on average 90,000 K USD are entering/buying into BTS every month right now?

 

Wait what? I think some of these numbers are wrong or I didn't get what you actually meant. First of all, if 23,000,000 new BTS entered into circulation each month the funds would be depleted in 5 years, with an inflation ~10% per year.

https://bitshares.org/technology/stakeholder-approved-project-funding/ This is the max we can use, please link me to another source if that's wrong.

You've got to understand @tonyk , that by increasing the liquidity or incentivising people to hold bts, you are going to earn a lot more. Offering a 2.5% a year, for people to hold BTS is nothing. How many people are going to lock their funds or trade? 30% of the users? 50%? then you have 1.25% of actual inflation (dilution). This way you destroy the sell wall. Even one whale a month. Just one, that would hold their funds, would buy those 50k$ worth of shares.

And again, 90k$ a month (which is the wrong number), is nothing compared to the average trading volume which is more than 90k$.

I've followed NXT, I've followed Dash, I've followed NuBits, I own some too. But this community superior in every fucking sense. People are working on projects, expecting to be paid after they completed the work and you don't want to pay them? There are so many good things that can be done and you are rejecting these ideas. So BM is a moron and retard that is offering some feautures for free.

Let's say that BM isn't doing anything for free, that's why he got CNX formed etc etc. If BM didn't expect his shares price to rise by implementing that liquidity model, would he do it that for free? Do you think that CNX and those people own no shares? Or the people who are in this community? Please see the bigger picture and don't get stuck with some potential initial loses.

My numbers tend to be right... unfortunately.
Other people might tell you there is 6% dilution per year... but that is the long term print rate...
Read the above post.. there is a shit load of other new BTS coming into the market that are not counted in thier calculations...for the convenience of the poster...or just cause "they will end in meager 8 mo."
Those alone will be netting 100 mil or 160 mil new BTS.

PS
and do not get me started on trading volume... you think more than 3% are actual final buys/sells?
I can show you trading volume of 10x the market cap of a coin...or (if you really pay me)  I can show you I day where I traded 75 BTC and started and ended with a position of ~ 0.5-1.0 BTC worth of that coin.

You're hilarious, tony.  The MAXIMUM dilution rate is 432,000 BTS per day, or ~13M BTS per month.  At today's prices, that's about $53k/month, or $1800/day.  And we're only spending a small fraction of that.  Fact is, @tarantulaz caught you in a lie, and instead of at least saying you made a mistake, you stuck to your guns without backing up your numbers.  All you did was give a circular reference i.e. "see above post" which of course contained nothing but your original empty claim.  And then for good measure, you threw in some obfuscation by going on and on about how you could teach us things about trading volume.  Cut the crap, tony.

Our dilution rate, which is minimal, barely contributes to sell pressure.  A MUCH bigger factor is the 21M BTS/month from the merger, which is coming to an end in a matter of months, as @chryspano has pointed out.  But even THAT is not a huge number compared to the biggest factor causing sell pressure over the last couple of years, which has been the crypto bear market. 

Given the competitive, fast-paced environment of crypto, we need to continue building and maintaining our product or we will not be able to compete which will ultimately lead to zero demand for BTS.  So it's incredibly foolish to skimp on development work, which causes minimal dilution and contributes almost ZERO to sell pressure.  Why is this difficult for a segment of our community to understand?  It really doesn't take a genius.

Tony is referring to/or including the merger in his 23 million statement.

How much dilution we can support is partly determined by how much new average demand for BTS there is & how much BTS buy support there is, as opposed to just looking at our current valuation.

Unlike a crypto-currency, where the share is the product, BTS doesn't have a product that is in demand yet, so there is no actual buy support, but rather only speculative investment and the buy walls on Polo and BTC38 are very low. 

So the combination of Merger sell pressure, dilution for development but no product that is in demand yet is very price suppressive.

While we constantly develop nice to have features in the $30-50k range (partly to sustain CNX overheads) that aren't actual products, (Dice for example would be a product) it creates a negative cycle where speculators see the constant sell pressure but little prospect of new demand on the horizon and so they are inclined to sell too & let other shareholders support the price in the 'still developing our popular product' stage. 

For example, I personally intend to hold fairly little BTS until we get closer to the merger dilution coming to an end or until we implement something that I believe will create net new demand for BTS now as opposed to some time in the future. (I personally think dilution for yield will do that.)


Edit

If you look at most of the alts above and around us, I don't think the issue is that they are outpacing us with development and yet they are outperforming. We have a great product that maybe needs a bit of tweaking, Smartcoins, so if we're going to use dilution imo it should be to bootstrap and create demand for that product. Demand for Smartcoins will give us the capability to develop more nice to have or really cool features in other areas. 

[tbone]

Current daily budget ~= 360K including witness pay. You should take a look on this https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/issues/569.

Ok, but how much of that ~360k daily budget is actually dilutive (i.e. not going back to the reserve pool)?  It looks like less than 200k (correct me if I'm wrong).  Again, that is a TINY number in terms of contribution to sell pressure in the grand scheme of things.   

Hourly budget is a linear function of amount of remaining fund in reserve pool. So the more fund in reserve pool, the more fund can be used everyday.

hourly budget = (remaining funds in reserve pool) * 3600 * 17 / 2^32

You make it sound like the funds to be used can grow without limits.  No, the size of the reserve is limited to 1.2B, which means the MAXIMUM worker dilution numbers I gave are correct.  Indeed, it is not possible to spend more than 12M BTS per month, which equates to about $1700 per day (which we are currently spending less than half of).  Again, these amounts contribute only a TINY amount of sell pressure relative to merger shares vesting and, more significantly, general crypto market sentiment which has been bearish for most of the past 2 years. 

The point is, we have a vocal segment of the community that is woefully uneducated about these realities.  And it is hurting our ability to do the kind of investment required to gain traction in the market and remain relevant in the long term.  And again, if they cannot be educated, they need to be jettisoned or at least marginalized.

[tbone]

I think tony referred to the funds that are still vesting due to the
merger ..
Those funds are not liquid right now and not in the reserves either ..

Then he should say this explicitly. Discussion is difficult if people do not clearly say or define what they are talking about.

In a previous post on this thread, @chryspano referred to the merger shares vesting at a rate of 21M per month, but ending in 8 months.   @xeroc, are these numbers correct?  Either way, tony said that's not what he was referring to.  But he didn't give any specifics.  I don't think he's interested in facts.

[abit]

Current daily budget ~= 360K including witness pay. You should take a look on this https://github.com/cryptonomex/graphene/issues/569. Hourly budget is a linear function of amount of remaining fund in reserve pool. So the more fund in reserve pool, the more fund can be used everyday.

hourly budget = (remaining funds in reserve pool) * 3600 * 17 / 2^32

[tbone]

actually this statement is wrong on many levels!

Sometimes I really don't get your thinking. Let's try to break this to pieces and figure out where we are actually disagreeing.

- Bitshares has no dilution/inflation. Quantity of BTS is hardcapped to 3.7 billion.
- Bitshares has reserve pool that contains all BTS that are not in active circulation.
- Reserve pool is used to fund workers and witnesses. Bitshares is a DAC, so it's like a company, and companies need workers that can produce products and services that their customers will use.
- BTS is taken out from the reserve pool with fixed rate 5 BTS/s.
- BTS can be put back to the reserve pool by two means: Refund worker (a special worker that doesn't to anything else than transfers BTS to the reserve pool) and customers paying fees (part of the transaction fee goes to the reserve pool).
- Size of the reserve pool depends on initial amount of BTS in there, continuous subtraction of 5 BTS/s, variable addition of BTS depending on how much goes to refund workers and how much users are doing transactions, what the fees are and what portion of the fees goes to the reserve pool.
- The goal of the Bitshares DAC is to grow the reserve pool by having paying customers who pay more in fees than the DAC pays for it's workers as salaries.

So it is highly misleading to talk about only the fixed rate of 5 BTS/s coming out from reserve pool. The formula has other variables too that are important if you want to understand how the system works.

Perhaps you are right that technically there is no dilution due to the number of shares being capped at 3.7B.  But practically speaking, the market cap is calculated based on the number of shares actually in circulation.  The rate at which this can change is capped at the 5BTS/s number you mentioned, which equates to the 432K/day or 13M/month numbers I mentioned in my previous post. 

But again, the actual dilution based on current worker proposals that are not returning their funds back to the reserve I believe is less than half of that, so about 200k BTS or $800 per day at current prices.  Even the full amount of funds available for worker proposals is such a tiny number.  It blows my mind that we waste so much time debating whether we should spend it.  Instead, we should be talking about HOW we should spend it to create shareholder value by enhancing our product offering. 

The more I think about it, the more I believe that if the so-called "anti-dilution" (i.e. anti-development, anti-progress) crowd cannot be educated, we should strongly encourage them to sell.  Let's just get it over with so we can move onward and upward. 

[Samupaha]

I think tony referred to the funds that are still vesting due to the
merger ..
Those funds are not liquid right now and not in the reserves either ..

Then he should say this explicitly. Discussion is difficult if people do not clearly say or define what they are talking about.