Author Topic: [Worker Proposal] Percentage-based transfer fees  (Read 19263 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Even if we spent the maximum of 5 BTS per second (which is 432k per day), it would take us 7.5 years to spend all our money meant for development.
7.5 years! That's a huge amount of time in this fast-changing crypto-world.

In 7-10 years BitShares will either be huge or dead.
So we need to send the money now, not in the future, because this way the future will not come. You'll be left with unspent funds and a dead project.

Here you have this situation: you have abit who is surely one of the most talented guys (in technical terms) outside CNX, you have funding for the next 7 years and you hesitate whether you can afford him or not.
This is utter nonsense.

It's like being in a space rocket destined to Mars and being hesitant if you can afford to feed the crew.
We have exactly one astronaut willing to fly with us (no other astronaut has come forward) and we pretend that we are not sure if we can pay him a decent salary, while we sleep on unspent cash.
In a corporate environment, a board of directors making such an absurd decision would be immediately fired.

For me one thing is absolutely clear: we cannot afford to lose abit's willingness to work for us.
If we had 10 people like abit to choose from and if we were already spending 432k a day, it would make sense to think about choosing the best offer.
But we are not even close to this.



^^ THIS !!

Offline cube

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Thanks for asking.


But I have to agree with alt on one thing, we need a budget and control spendings. Just because we have some money it doesn't mean we can spend it on stuff just because they sound like good ideas. We need a budget...

We need a plan. We don't have one.
...


I agree with Akado. This project has a good cause and it needs support from the big stakeholders.

Perhaps by addressing their concerns, it would help gain their support.  How about working on the following (if possible and viable) ? :

1) Is there a detailed function/product specification?
Please see OP, the first page.

Quote

2) What is the projected number of transactions using the new percent-based transfer function (an estimation based on some figures would do)?  From there we can derive a projected revenue.
Sorry I didn't get your point. However, revenue largely depends on sales/marketing/direction of the whole platform, and the over all fee schedule matters a lot. If flat fee is 30 BTS and percentage fee bottom is 1 BTS, more assets will adopt percentage fee; if flat fee is 1 BTS and percentage fee bottom is 1 BTS, few if not zero asset will adopt it. Since there is lack of stable pricing strategy right now, I'm unable to give out a estimation.

Quote
3) A cost breakdown would help. 
- What are the tasks?
- How many manhours needed for each task?

4) Cost comparison.
- How is the cost of source code development and documentation manpower as compared to the market?  Some figures to compare would help.
Sorry, but manhour is nonsense. We're selling products, not labor force.

Quote
5) What are the deliverables?  What is the roadmap/timeline for the tasks and deliverables?
Please check OP.

Quote
6) Warranty for the function/product.  How long is the warranty that ensures a working function/product as stated in the specification?
I think one year of warranty is fair.
Maintenance work due to other changes is not included.

Thanks for the reply.  I believe this would help the shareholders to make a more informed decision.
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jakub

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It's all fine now, giving a few touches to the network, etc, but then when the time comes to implement big stuff (ie bond markets, other new ideas that might appear, urgent fixes, etc) that require more spending but are really needed, we won't have the money. Or we might have but will be restricting ourselves in someway, etc.

We can't just keep popping worker proposals and approve them, even though they're positive, without seeing the bigger picture and the effect those will have in the future and what limitations those will create.

Then when the time comes we won't be able to do what's really needed/urgent.

Even if we spent the maximum of 5 BTS per second (which is 432k per day), it would take us 7.5 years to spend all our money meant for development.
7.5 years! That's a huge amount of time in this fast-changing crypto-world.

In 7-10 years BitShares will either be huge or dead.
So we need to send the money now, not in the future, because this way the future will not come. You'll be left with unspent funds and a dead project.

Here you have this situation: you have abit who is surely one of the most talented guys (in technical terms) outside CNX, you have funding for the next 7 years and you hesitate whether you can afford him or not.
This is utter nonsense.

It's like being in a space rocket destined to Mars and being hesitant if you can afford to feed the crew.
We have exactly one astronaut willing to fly with us (no other astronaut has come forward) and we pretend that we are not sure if we can pay him a decent salary, while we sleep on unspent cash.
In a corporate environment, a board of directors making such an absurd decision would be immediately fired.

For me one thing is absolutely clear: we cannot afford to lose abit's willingness to work for us.
If we had 10 people like abit to choose from and if we were already spending 432k a day, it would make sense to think about choosing the best offer.
But we are not even close to this.

Offline abit

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Thanks for asking.


But I have to agree with alt on one thing, we need a budget and control spendings. Just because we have some money it doesn't mean we can spend it on stuff just because they sound like good ideas. We need a budget...

We need a plan. We don't have one.
...


I agree with Akado. This project has a good cause and it needs support from the big stakeholders.

Perhaps by addressing their concerns, it would help gain their support.  How about working on the following (if possible and viable) ? :

1) Is there a detailed function/product specification?
Please see OP, the first page.

Quote

2) What is the projected number of transactions using the new percent-based transfer function (an estimation based on some figures would do)?  From there we can derive a projected revenue.
Sorry I didn't get your point. However, revenue largely depends on sales/marketing/direction of the whole platform, and the over all fee schedule matters a lot. If flat fee is 30 BTS and percentage fee bottom is 1 BTS, more assets will adopt percentage fee; if flat fee is 1 BTS and percentage fee bottom is 1 BTS, few if not zero asset will adopt it. Since there is lack of stable pricing strategy right now, I'm unable to give out a estimation.

Quote
3) A cost breakdown would help. 
- What are the tasks?
- How many manhours needed for each task?

4) Cost comparison.
- How is the cost of source code development and documentation manpower as compared to the market?  Some figures to compare would help.
Sorry, but manhour is nonsense. We're selling products, not labor force.

Quote
5) What are the deliverables?  What is the roadmap/timeline for the tasks and deliverables?
Please check OP.

Quote
6) Warranty for the function/product.  How long is the warranty that ensures a working function/product as stated in the specification?
I think one year of warranty is fair.
Maintenance work due to other changes is not included.
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Offline cube

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But I have to agree with alt on one thing, we need a budget and control spendings. Just because we have some money it doesn't mean we can spend it on stuff just because they sound like good ideas. We need a budget...

We need a plan. We don't have one.
...


I agree with Akado. This project has a good cause and it needs support from the big stakeholders.

Perhaps by addressing their concerns, it would help gain their support.  How about working on the following (if possible and viable) ? :

1) Is there a detailed function/product specification?

2) What is the projected number of transactions using the new percent-based transfer function (an estimation based on some figures would do)?  From there we can derive a projected revenue.

3) A cost breakdown would help. 
- What are the tasks?
- How many manhours needed for each task?

4) Cost comparison.
- How is the cost of source code development and documentation manpower as compared to the market?  Some figures to compare would help.

5) What are the deliverables?  What is the roadmap/timeline for the tasks and deliverables?

6) Warranty for the function/product.  How long is the warranty that ensures a working function/product as stated in the specification?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 05:54:52 am by cube »
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Offline abit

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More progresses have been made recently.

With a new patch, now the Committee can set percentage market(trading) fees and/or percentage transfer fee for BTS. Details described in this post https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21080.0.html.

Thanks for your support.
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chryspano

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Alt is probably waiting for the barbarians...


Offline abit

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub

alt seems to reject all existing workers:
http://cryptofresh.com/u/baozi

I wanted to know if he would support something else, exactly because of that. What potential workers could be on his priority list. I'm talking about possible workers that could be created for a specific task, not necessarily the ones that already exist.

But I have to agree with alt on one thing, we need a budget and control spendings. Just because we have some money it doesn't mean we can spend it on stuff just because they sound like good ideas. We need a budget, see potential consequences in the future and have a list of the main stuff people and the network needs. And then, from that, we prioritize according to our budget and what's needed the most.

Then once that task is done, we do it all over again to re-evaluate our position and see if we can do more stuff next, if we should wait a few months, go for alternatives, etc.

We need a plan. We don't have one.

It's all fine now, giving a few touches to the network, etc, but then when the time comes to implement big stuff (ie bond markets, other new ideas that might appear, urgent fixes, etc) that require more spending but are really needed, we won't have the money. Or we might have but will be restricting ourselves in someway, etc.

We can't just keep popping worker proposals and approve them, even though they're positive, without seeing the bigger picture and the effect those will have in the future and what limitations those will create.

Then when the time comes we won't be able to do what's really needed/urgent.
If we don't have enough qualify developers, when the time comes, we'll have no one can help us. If we ask them to work for others to make a live now, when we need them to come back, why do you think they will? Why do you think you're so important when you need them?

Not everyone are entrepreneurs. Not everyone have the ability/interest to talk to VCs.
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jakub

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we need more developers like toast to ETH,
who can tell me how much payment does toast got from ETH?
how much payment does toast got from BTS?
finally, toast give his valuable to who?

@alt
I'm glad you've brought up the ETH example.
How would answer these questions:

(1) Does ETH have a detailed budget and a financial plan with strict price tags? I don't mean a general roadmap, I mean a detailed financial plan, as you expect us to have.

(2) I guess you are aware that ETH is currently diluting massively running its POW (and this will continue until they have some POS sorted out). How come this kind of dilution not bother you? According to your stock price "theory", ETH price should have tanked massively long time ago.

(3) If there was a company that dilutes 20% a year but makes a steady progress in building some amazing invention - do you really expect its stock price to continuously drop and finally reach zero?  Don't you think it's the expectation of the future value of a company that actually determines the stock price?

I think your approach is quite simple: you believe that xeroc's work is *not* worth the price he's asking for. The same applies for svk, cass, abit and CNX.
If you believed it was worth the price, you would have willingly paid the price. Simple as that. That's a rational behavior for our species.

Instead, you keep repeating how you appreciate their work, but when it comes to actually valuing this work, with the only objective tool that we have at our disposal (i.e. money), you just say the opposite.

EDIT: A simple test to verify if my hypothesis has any value:
If xeroc offered to work for us for $1 a day, would you still reject his worker on the basis that we cannot have any dilution?
I guess you would not be this crazy and you would accept xeroc's offer in this case. So $1 a day is some sort of estimate of the lower bound of the value of xeroc's work.

Then we could continue this experiment by raising xeroc's offer to $2 a day, $5 a day, $10 a day etc, until we reach a point when you decide to reject his offer. And this will be the financial value of xeroc's work, in your eyes.

My point is: xeroc's work has some positive financial value and this value is quite independent from our company's financial situation.
As long as we have money to spend, and we feel that spending this money brings more value to the company than it costs, the rational thing to do is spend the money, no matter what the market cap is.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 05:31:57 pm by jakub »

Offline Akado

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub

alt seems to reject all existing workers:
http://cryptofresh.com/u/baozi

I wanted to know if he would support something else, exactly because of that. What potential workers could be on his priority list. I'm talking about possible workers that could be created for a specific task, not necessarily the ones that already exist.

But I have to agree with alt on one thing, we need a budget and control spendings. Just because we have some money it doesn't mean we can spend it on stuff just because they sound like good ideas. We need a budget, see potential consequences in the future and have a list of the main stuff people and the network needs. And then, from that, we prioritize according to our budget and what's needed the most.

Then once that task is done, we do it all over again to re-evaluate our position and see if we can do more stuff next, if we should wait a few months, go for alternatives, etc.

We need a plan. We don't have one.

It's all fine now, giving a few touches to the network, etc, but then when the time comes to implement big stuff (ie bond markets, other new ideas that might appear, urgent fixes, etc) that require more spending but are really needed, we won't have the money. Or we might have but will be restricting ourselves in someway, etc.

We can't just keep popping worker proposals and approve them, even though they're positive, without seeing the bigger picture and the effect those will have in the future and what limitations those will create.

Then when the time comes we won't be able to do what's really needed/urgent.
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jakub

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub

alt seems to reject all existing workers:
http://cryptofresh.com/u/baozi

Offline alt

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub
first we need a budget, then I can decide how to use these money.
If I have 1million USD, I can hire many worker, do many development works.
If I have 10K USD, I will use these money carefully

how to use these money?
I need a  task list, analyze each task,give them a priority, put down  a roadmap....
I will try to ask for a cheap price for every task I have to do.

now, we have no manager, we spent money very genous like we are very rich, and have no plan, like a blind.

I agree with you on that.

Do you have any idea of those tasks? Any that you think is important and would at the top of your list with more priority? Ignoring the budget for now, I'm interested in knowing the tasks you think are important for BitShares at the moment, if you could share.
I guess we are much more faster than all others blockchain, even ETH.
we just need to focus on develop our business now.
I encourage all developer, try to find a partner, develop a startup business, seek the venture capital.

we need more developers like toast to ETH,
who can tell me how much payment does toast got from ETH?
how much payment does toast got from BTS?
finally, toast give his valuable to who?

Offline Akado

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub
first we need a budget, then I can decide how to use these money.
If I have 1million USD, I can hire many worker, do many development works.
If I have 10K USD, I will use these money carefully

how to use these money?
I need a  task list, analyze each task,give them a priority, put down  a roadmap....
I will try to ask for a cheap price for every task I have to do.

now, we have no manager, we spent money very genous like we are very rich, and have no plan, like a blind.

I agree with you on that.

Do you have any idea of those tasks? Any that you think is important and would at the top of your list with more priority? Ignoring the budget for now, I'm interested in knowing the tasks you think are important for BitShares at the moment, if you could share.
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Offline alt

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub
first we need a budget, then I can decide how to use these money.
If I have 1million USD, I can hire many worker, do many development works.
If I have 10K USD, I will use these money carefully

how to use these money?
I need a  task list, analyze each task,give them a priority, put down  a roadmap....
I will try to ask for a cheap price for every task I have to do.

now, we have no manager, we spent money very genous like we are very rich, and have no plan, like a blind.

Offline Akado

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@alt could you share what workers would you support? Meaning, which workers you think we need. That are indeed useful and not unnecessary? Any feature or something else in particular?

Sorry for asking here but alt doesn't have a proxy thread on the proxy sub
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads