Author Topic: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution  (Read 4193 times)

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Xeldal

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2016, 01:40:28 pm »
I don't think the price would react at all.  It's a non-event.  non-change. purely perceptual.

Anyone selling or buying on this non-change doesn't care enough about the project to understand this non-difference, and likely wouldn't even notice.

IMO, I don't think it makes sense to change for CMC reporting though, because the supply is not actually available, even if you accounted for what could conceivably be released over a year or two, it still doesn't amount to much.

However, I do think it makes sense to change the way we communicate and talk about the supply.  Having a supply that goes down, and can *only go down is a very positive and healthy way of looking at it.  Anywhere you might mention the supply just start with the total supply and if necessary derive the available supply.


Offline xeroc

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2016, 08:14:04 pm »
i am not sure if we want to do this, but i also don't like the discussions and threads about dilution.

but i think it would be wrong to add it on coinmarketcap. with the same agrument bitcoin could say we have to change the numbers also.

makes no sense to report the shares als "availabel" if you can not sell them. the same problem exists with the vesting shares.

The difference between Bitshares and Bitcoin here is that their supply is locked up with POW. They are unlocking them literally as fast as humanly possible. Our supply could be released tomorrow with enough votes.

i thought we have a limit of 400.000 BTS? or can this also be changed? if this is, i didnt have the right information and the available shares should be adjusted on CMC.
If enough share holders agree, we can easily change that 400K BTS per day limitation. Even possible a hard fork to change the 3.7BB limitation. IMO it's no need to discuss right now at all.
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Offline abit

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2016, 09:06:12 pm »
i am not sure if we want to do this, but i also don't like the discussions and threads about dilution.

but i think it would be wrong to add it on coinmarketcap. with the same agrument bitcoin could say we have to change the numbers also.

makes no sense to report the shares als "availabel" if you can not sell them. the same problem exists with the vesting shares.

The difference between Bitshares and Bitcoin here is that their supply is locked up with POW. They are unlocking them literally as fast as humanly possible. Our supply could be released tomorrow with enough votes.

i thought we have a limit of 400.000 BTS? or can this also be changed? if this is, i didnt have the right information and the available shares should be adjusted on CMC.
If enough share holders agree, we can easily change that 400K BTS per day limitation. Even possible a hard fork to change the 3.7BB limitation. IMO it's no need to discuss right now at all.
The BTS asset is owned by the null-account for a reason
We're able to make a hard fork and change it. Easily.
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Offline Thom

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2016, 09:16:08 pm »
You will kill bts if you adjust the supply to 3.7 billion.  That number is only true if it is used up in worker proposals or witness pay.  The price is bts will be cut by a 3rd and traders are going to get margin called and stopped out. Think of what happened to the swiss Frank after they said they were abandoning the euro peg. The frank rose 20% causing exchanges to blow up while many traders were carried out in body bags.

This would be the most detrimental thing ever to happen to bitshares... It will be much worse than the merger.

My gut tells me this is the result such an approach will get us.

Perception is everything, and making any "official" adjustments to the already stated supply levels will not be seen as a positive change. And all this just to avoid the talk about dilution? Seems a lot  like QE logic by the FED to me, "lets just spend our way out of debt", Keynesian economics. "Lets dilute so we can say we're not diluting".

Revising our official supply from 2.5B to 3.7B regardless of the actual mechanics sends the wrong signal to the market. I fear it would have a negative impact on perception, a contrary impact to the reason stated in the OP.

At the minimum it is a risky move and IMO the anticipated benefit is not worth the risk.
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2016, 09:43:29 pm »
Perception is everything, and making any "official" adjustments to the already stated supply levels will not be seen as a positive change. And all this just to avoid the talk about dilution? Seems a lot  like QE logic by the FED to me, "lets just spend our way out of debt", Keynesian economics. "Lets dilute so we can say we're not diluting".

It's this sort of perception that I am trying to nip in the bud while we are tiny. The FED mints an arbitrary amount of money to spend their way out of debt. Bitshares can't because there is a hard cap on supply of 3.7B. A little over a billion of that is in the reserve pool that we pretend doesn't exist until we need it. I'm puzzled how some feel that's more honest and transparent.

Offline roadscape

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2016, 03:11:12 pm »
I don't think the price would react at all.  It's a non-event.  non-change. purely perceptual.

Anyone selling or buying on this non-change doesn't care enough about the project to understand this non-difference, and likely wouldn't even notice.

IMO, I don't think it makes sense to change for CMC reporting though, because the supply is not actually available, even if you accounted for what could conceivably be released over a year or two, it still doesn't amount to much.

However, I do think it makes sense to change the way we communicate and talk about the supply.  Having a supply that goes down, and can *only go down is a very positive and healthy way of looking at it.  Anywhere you might mention the supply just start with the total supply and if necessary derive the available supply.

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Offline bytemaster

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2016, 03:17:29 pm »
Rather than adjusting the supply, we could just commit to the maximum level of inflation and then allocate it as best as we can. This way any unexpected reductions in inflation can boost the price rather than fear, uncertainty, and doubt every time we vote for something.
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Offline abit

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2016, 03:39:32 pm »
... allocate it as best as we can. ...
How?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2016, 03:42:38 pm »
... allocate it as best as we can. ...
How?

It would create a market competition for the BEST things to fund. If people don't like where the money is going they can bid better / more work for the same money.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline btswildpig

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2016, 03:58:03 pm »
... allocate it as best as we can. ...
How?

It would create a market competition for the BEST things to fund. If people don't like where the money is going they can bid better / more work for the same money.

you mean depend on the same crew who believed merger was the best thing for BitShares to decide/bid the fittest option for BitShares ?

Your idea always sounded good in a pure speculative sensation , but in reality , things doesn't work like that . "If X then Y" works in programming language because there is only fixed outcome and fixed condition , but in reality neither X or Y is fixed .

No . it would not create a market competition for the BEST things to fund because neither you or the crew know what is best to fund . Spending money and getting return is a rare ability , that kind of ability never belongs to most people . 

VCs give money to hundreds of companies , only few of them would prevail . That's how hard it is to run a business , that's how hard it is to fund something and getting return .

To the most extent , competition for bids would create the solution with the best price for a specific task , but it wouldn't be good to the business if the task wasn't helping the business to begin with .

If you can't get bunch of people to help you run a successful company , you can't depend on a bunch of people who naive enough to believe "new features would boost the market cap" to spend dilution on "the best features" in order to boost the value of BitShares either .
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:09:55 pm by btswildpig »
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