Author Topic: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution  (Read 4128 times)

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Offline yvv

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2016, 03:09:43 am »
If you call a piece of crap a chocolate, it will not become a chocolate.
I can't tell if this is for or against.

Diluting to fund workers is a current issue.

Anyway it's just semantics. We don't consider pool funds as real but we use them to pay workers...

In order for pool funds to reach the market, they need to change hands. They need to go to personal accounts of witnesses and workers first. Then they become available to market supply. And it is fair to consider this funds only available. Unless you want to lie to yourself.

Offline Riverhead

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2016, 03:39:53 am »
If you call a piece of crap a chocolate, it will not become a chocolate.
I can't tell if this is for or against.

Diluting to fund workers is a current issue.

Anyway it's just semantics. We don't consider pool funds as real but we use them to pay workers...

In order for pool funds to reach the market, they need to change hands. They need to go to personal accounts of witnesses and workers first. Then they become available to market supply. And it is fair to consider this funds only available. Unless you want to lie to yourself.

When a company buys back its own stock those shares are off the market. Do they still count towards supply? I honestly don't know but I feel the situation is analogous.

Offline JonnyB

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2016, 11:40:57 am »
I've always thought in my head that total supply included the reserve pool and have never understood why we use the word dilution.
It's not dilution it is using our reserve funds.
These reserve funds are controlled by the the share holders.
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Offline starodubcev

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2016, 01:24:09 pm »
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If you call a piece of crap a chocolate, it will not become a chocolate.
Зол Я 9 и в этом шт ш ох ш 7 шашкой >

If I recall correctly the exclusion of the reserve pool from total supply was because it couldn't be spent and it provided the feeling of deflation. However the cost of that is the stigma of dilution any time that pool is tapped.

What are the communities thoughts on basically pulling a "Ripple" and adding the reserve pool to the communicated total supply and doing away with the term dilution altogether? There'd be a one time hit as the market adjusted to the new supply but the long term benefits may outweigh that cost.

Thoughts?

Hell no.

What would happen is that instead of having an $8M market cap at a 2.5B supply, we would go down to a $*M market cap for the 3.7B supply.


The only thing pulling a ripple did was make everyone hate them, remember? 



Furthermore, listing 3.7B supply of BTS would not be accurate, because this amount does not exist.  It would be like listing BTC's supply at 21M right now, and saying its market cap is 50% higher.

well it did one other thing oretty effectively...destroy a amassive headwind pushing us up past them.  had they not done that, i still suspect we would have stayed higher than them....but then again i could be wrong.


If I recall correctly the exclusion of the reserve pool from total supply was because it couldn't be spent and it provided the feeling of deflation. However the cost of that is the stigma of dilution any time that pool is tapped.

What are the communities thoughts on basically pulling a "Ripple" and adding the reserve pool to the communicated total supply and doing away with the term dilution altogether? There'd be a one time hit as the market adjusted to the new supply but the long term benefits may outweigh that cost.

Thoughts?

Hell no.

What would happen is that instead of having an $8M market cap at a 2.5B supply, we would go down to a $*M market cap for the 3.7B supply.


The only thing pulling a ripple did was make everyone hate them, remember? 



Furthermore, listing 3.7B supply of BTS would not be accurate, because this amount does not exist.  It would be like listing BTC's supply at 21M right now, and saying its market cap is 50% higher.

Offline starodubcev

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2016, 01:25:34 pm »
Щцх

Offline starodubcev

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2016, 01:26:13 pm »
Ща 97912 8088 79814662079 ш 89814520192 9 хххххх7лез 98
If you call a piece of crap a chocolate, it will not become a chocolate.
I can't tell if this is for or against.

Diluting to fund workers is a current issue.

Anyway it's just semantics. We don't consider pool funds as real but we use them to pay workers...

In order for pool funds to reach the market, they need to change hands. They need to go to personal accounts of witnesses and workers first. Then they become available to market supply. And it is fair to consider this funds only available. Unless you want to lie to yourself.

When a company buys back its own stock those shares are off the market. Do they still count towards supply? I honestly don't know but I feel the situation is analogous.
02 ш9 ш 89814520192 щ 9
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 01:32:56 pm by starodubcev »

Offline yvv

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2016, 01:41:19 pm »
I've always thought in my head that total supply included the reserve pool and have never understood why we use the word dilution.
It's not dilution it is using our reserve funds.
These reserve funds are controlled by the the share holders.

You have to distinguish between your personal funds, which you can sell upon your wish, and company funds, which can not be sold by yourself. Personal property and public property are different things.

Offline dannotestein

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2016, 02:54:55 pm »
I've always thought in my head that total supply included the reserve pool and have never understood why we use the word dilution.
It's not dilution it is using our reserve funds.
These reserve funds are controlled by the the share holders.

You have to distinguish between your personal funds, which you can sell upon your wish, and company funds, which can not be sold by yourself. Personal property and public property are different things.
Yes, they are different in this case because the value of the shareholder-owned  property (I think public property isn't the proper word here, since it implies it's owned by the public where it's in fact owned by the shareholders) is implicitly already valued into the price of all the privately held "shares". If the shareholder-owned property is used as payment to 3rd parties (or even as dividends to shareholders), the value of the privately held shares go down. This is the same reason that stocks drop in price ex-dividend.
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Offline yvv

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2016, 03:07:41 pm »
I've always thought in my head that total supply included the reserve pool and have never understood why we use the word dilution.
It's not dilution it is using our reserve funds.
These reserve funds are controlled by the the share holders.

You have to distinguish between your personal funds, which you can sell upon your wish, and company funds, which can not be sold by yourself. Personal property and public property are different things.
Yes, they are different in this case because the value of the shareholder-owned  property (I think public property isn't the proper word here, since it implies it's owned by the public where it's in fact owned by the shareholders) is implicitly already valued into the price of all the privately held "shares". If the shareholder-owned property is used as payment to 3rd parties (or even as dividends to shareholders), the value of the privately held shares go down. This is the same reason that stocks drop in price ex-dividend.

Right, "public propety" is not a good wording. Reserve pool is mutual property of shareholders. It is different from personal funds of each shareholder.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2016, 03:35:40 pm »
Soooo could this all be perhaps better handled by better educating shareholders on what the Reserve pool actually is and what impact it has on share value?
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2016, 09:56:56 pm »
The whole point of this exercise is to get away from the word dilution as it has a pretty bad stigma in many people's mind. It seems the general opinion is somewhere between, "yes the reserve pool should be included in supply" and "No it shouldn't because although they are real (they can be counted) their existence is already factored into the outstanding, i.e not DAC owned, supply."

If the shareholders decide to fund work for the DAC by spending from the reserve pool, and the shareholders own the DAC, it isn't dilution IMHO because no shares were created or destroyed. To be dilution they would have to be newly minted shares of an arbitrary amount. The market does not live with the specter of an unlimited number of funds suddenly being released onto the market. As JonnyBitcoin said it's already factored in as a known quantity.

Since the reserve pool is DAC owned and shareholder controlled the inclusion of them in the published supply shouldn't affect market price since they cannot all of a sudden flood the market any more than they can now. The big difference is "those in the know" understand they are there and the average trader does not.

It is my position that including the shares in the published supply would better illustrate the DAC's ability to fund itself, give a more accurate and public picture how many BTS actually exist, and take some of the political drama out of the DAC paying for work from the reserve fund.

Offline roadscape

Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2016, 10:37:47 pm »
It's a smart idea :D
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Offline sittingduck

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2016, 10:45:04 pm »
Perhaps it would be better to directly tax stakeholders to fund development. 

Offline puppies

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2016, 11:03:30 pm »
I think that changing our reported supply would lead to a drop in bts price of at least 200 sats.  If we are going to do this then I would sell the majority of my bts first so I could buy more back later. 
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Appearance of Deflation vs No Dilution
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2016, 11:21:26 pm »
I think that changing our reported supply would lead to a drop in bts price of at least 200 sats.  If we are going to do this then I would sell the majority of my bts first so I could buy more back later.

Don't know what the specific price fall would be but yes I'm fairly certain the price would fall >25%.

Adding the reserve pool to the total would be similar to what XRP did but I think it would have a negative price effect.

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