I think it's a more appropriate way to call it. As Dan said, nothing's really free, it's just rate limited. Some parts I couldn't get, etiher because I didn't understand or because they were cut or caused by Mumble issues where it wasn't clear. I still think it can get you an idea of what it is. Whoever is "someone else" sorry for not knowing who you are lol I don't recall who it is, sorry.
Starts at 22:50
Bytemaster: Could we imagine a scenario where the blockchain had no fees, at all? And instead all accounts were rate limited, proportional to their balance?
Fuzzy: What do you mean rate limited? As far as...
Bytemaster: As far as viewing your BitShares as owning a percentage of the available network capacity. So someone who owns 1% of the BitShares [network], could consume 1% of the network capacity
Fuzzy: So kinda like miners and mining pools?
Bytemaster: Completely unrelated to that.
Fuzzy: You're talking about like the network capacity as far as, what would someone get for having 1% of the network capacity, would they be able the chance the fees according to what.. like a service.. [interrupted]
Bytemaster: There are no fees. Imagine a system where, if you own 1%, you can consume 1% of every block, worst case. Think of it another way, imagine it's a... everyone's doing timeshare on the blockchain space and everyone who owns shares can consume some of the blockchain's space when they want to do a transaction and with this method no one will be able to flood the network because they can consume their allotted allocation of the bandwidth but not everyone wants to use the network at the same time so the network can support regular users transacting more or less whenever they want. The only thing it won't allow you to do is to flood the network with a large amount [of transactions].
Fuzzy: How would the profitability be found there?
Bytemaster: Profitability comes from network effect more than anything else. The tiny little amounts that we're collecting in fees are insignificant to (last/lost?) network effect and our complexity.
Someone else: How do witnesses get paid?
Bytemaster: Same way they do now, with dilution.
Fuzzy: But it would always dilute instead of burning any?
Bytemaster: Yes. Effectively recognizing the fact we could create and exchange that had no fees gets (didn't get this word, "something" abused?) and is completely decentralized and where people would come and use the exchange if we wanted to have some fees on market orders and that would be our only fee source, we could do that, versus right now we have people saying "Hey I don't want to build on your exchange" because people don't like paying a fraction of a cent to cancel their order.
Someone else (Data?): What would happen if a group of whales got together to absorb a lot of bandwidth would that be able to lock out people with very small amounts of shares in the network from transacting or would slow them down?
Bytemaster: There are algorithms that we can use to make sure that people who transact in a (missing this word. mile?) have more weight. Basically you make a proportional to coin days accumulated. Someone with a small balance that doesn't transact but once a week would be like someone with one seventh of that balance transacting everyday.
Fuzzy: Makes sense. The more you use it the less priority you have.
Bytemaster: Correct. We can do certain things like penalizing people for (missed this part. Use) high loads and automatic scaling of the fees. The goal here would be to create a system that has lower costs in terms of committee oversight, allows you to advertise free [fees?] -
Nothing in life is really free, anything it's advertised as free is fundamentally rate limited - allows people to use the network and we don't have to put fees in people's faces all the time,
Someone else(Data?: By the way, what role would the committee have in a "feeless" scheme like this?
Bytemaster: Controlling block size, block intervals, maintenance intervals(?). Mechanics. Committee members would make far less frequent discussion. If you want to change market fees that might be the only fee you would discuss, but such a system would get BitShares one step closer to having the same user experience as a centralized exchange.
Someone else: Would this be mostly for transactions? For example, creating an asset is still gonna cost a fee right?
Bytemaster: True. Anything that's scarce like that... One is bandwidth which is transient and the other is real estate which is permanent, so account names and asset symbols would still have fees associated with them.
Someone else: Would the committee account still be potentially adjusting smartcoin parameters, fee collecting (missing something here)?
Bytemaster: Yes
Someone else: And what would this do to the upcoming STEALTH feature? I mean obviously this isn't gonna happen at the time STEALTh is introduced but envisioning in the future, how would that impact situations like STEALTH?
Bytemaster: So STEALTH is something where the network doesn't know the balance so a fee still has to be charged. It wouldn't eliminate all fees but it would the majority of fees that people are complaining about.
Someone else: And I guess the other question is how does it impact the registration incentives, referral programs?
Bytemaster: Right now the referral program is set up to be based on fees, a percentage of future fees. That creates incentives to sign up users. We can still have fees but we can choose where and when and how much to charge fees versus right now we have to charge fees on absolutely everything in order to prevent spam. Look at it as an alternative minimum fee to prevent spam, allowing the committee to pick and choose where you actually want to charge users and where you don't want to charge users. So there's the new proposal for percentage based transfer fees that abit's been working on. I think that charging people for transfers proportional to the value of the transfer is great.
I think for low value transfers you can get rid of the minimum cause we have an alternative way of charging people for small amounts so there would have to be no minimum fee for the percentage base transfers which would leave us only with the percentage + maximum. It gives us more options in our toolbox and can allow micro payments as long as you don't flood the network with them and things like that.
Fuzzy: Does that answer your question?
Someone else: Fee backed assets would also be affected I guess in the same way STEALTH is...
Bytemaster: Correct. So someone says, a big whale can continuously flood the network. Well there's too things here: 1, the network will (couldn't get this part, there's an interruption) fraction of the available capacity. So if we're able to do a thousand transactions per second, anything over a hundred transactions per second will start to have very high fees, Basically would consume the user's transaction power, very rapidly. So a whale who attempts to flood will quickly get rate limited without rate limiting the smaller parties who transact plus frequently? ...(missed this part) Transacting constantly has power proportional to their stake, as time approaches zero but so he transacts only once a week, well they've got seven times the transaction power when they do transact, because they didn't transact for an entire week. For a whale who attempts to save their transactions power for a year and then flood the network all at once it also rapidly depletes . There are algorithms available to prevent abuse. effectively if the network is fully loaded everyone gets to transact proportional to their stake. So someone who has 1% of the network can transact 1% of the time.
Someone else: That's basically a function of magnitude and time together.
Bytemaster: Correct. So a whale would not be able to consume every single block because non whales save up until they get priority over a whale. So it's kinda like if you use the mining analogy the low power miners periodically get a chance to produce a block and a high power miner might produce more frequently but the ratio is always proportional to the actual take.
Ends at 35:20. There's more stuff after but I got to go sleep now lol
Topic: Rate Limited Fees. Transcript from the Hangout (Read 5479 times)
