Author Topic: Subsidizing Market Liquidity  (Read 74656 times)

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Offline abit

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Absolutely .. the problem is that there are so many things moving and it is next to impossible to get the big picture of what those that discussed in the threads have agreed upon ..
If you put that into a few paragraphs ... we can get this into a nicely formated BSIP quickly!

absolutely...take it behind closed doors and discus it between 15 other people who have been to busy to read the thread.
15 people? I thought only 5~6 people behind the door.
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Offline tonyk

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Absolutely .. the problem is that there are so many things moving and it is next to impossible to get the big picture of what those that discussed in the threads have agreed upon ..
If you put that into a few paragraphs ... we can get this into a nicely formated BSIP quickly!

absolutely...take it behind closed doors and discus it between 15 other people who have been to busy to read the thread.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline cylonmaker2053

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Absolutely .. the problem is that there are so many things moving and it is next to impossible to get the big picture of what those that discussed in the threads have agreed upon ..
If you put that into a few paragraphs ... we can get this into a nicely formated BSIP quickly!

i agree, plus these threads become quite long and tough to follow, especially for important topics.

Offline xeroc

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Absolutely .. the problem is that there are so many things moving and it is next to impossible to get the big picture of what those that discussed in the threads have agreed upon ..
If you put that into a few paragraphs ... we can get this into a nicely formated BSIP quickly!

Offline tbone

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The best thing to approach CNX is probably to write down a specification to have them get the picture quickyl!

@xeroc, is this something you can help with?  I am offering a 10,000 BTS bounty for the worker proposal.
I haven't followed the topic closely but I can surely help you bring content into a proper format .. I just don't currently find the time to re-read the threads about this topic

Considering the overwhelming importance of getting liquidity going, isn't this a matter that the committee should get more involved with? 


Offline xeroc

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The best thing to approach CNX is probably to write down a specification to have them get the picture quickyl!

@xeroc, is this something you can help with?  I am offering a 10,000 BTS bounty for the worker proposal.
I haven't followed the topic closely but I can surely help you bring content into a proper format .. I just don't currently find the time to re-read the threads about this topic

Offline tbone

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The best thing to approach CNX is probably to write down a specification to have them get the picture quickyl!

@xeroc, is this something you can help with?  I am offering a 10,000 BTS bounty for the worker proposal.

Offline xeroc

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The best thing to approach CNX is probably to write down a specification to have them get the picture quickyl!

Offline tbone

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Let me ask you this. Why should someone be allowed to place an order 50% away from the peg and earn any points towards the "reward system"? or 40%? or 30%? How useful are orders that far away from the peg, really? And why would shareholders want some of the funds going to those who place such useless orders? Obviously, some restrictions need to be in place.

 +5%

Given the current BTS momentum and spotlight, BTS will gain much more value from implementing an imperfect liquidity subsidy now and adjusting it based on participant behaviour than waiting a few weeks/months to get one right. So if the cost is reasonable to start one, <$100/200 a day, then I would start it sharpish to build on the current attention and momentum & get more people onto the DEX.

I agree, we should do this ASAP, before momentum dies down. 

Offline tbone

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I assume the algorithm can take into account a 4th factor - buy/sell order imbalances - to reward market makers more for placing orders on the weak side of the book.  So 4 factors now include:

1. order size
2. time on book
3. proximity to best bid/ask
4. strong/weak side of book

Thoughts about coding this @abit, @xeroc?

The fourth factor seems "gameable". Someone could place a large amount on the opposite position that their order is on, for a small cost (just a cancel order fee,) effectively boosting their portion of the liquidity pool for fairly cheap. To combat this and other issues consider adding the following restrictions:

A. There should be a maximum percentage away from the price feed that someone can qualify for these awards. This ensures that the funds they put on the books will be at risk of market making (which can be profitable and unprofitable). This makes sure they are providing useful liquidity to shareholders. After all, shareholders are paying for the liquidity fund.
B. A minimum amount of time for each user to have orders on the books in each trading pair separately is also necessary to combat this. Requirement A makes sure they are providing useful liquidity, and subject to market making risks.  Requirement B makes sure that they are providing that useful liquidity and subject to market making risks for a reasonable amount of time. It makes sure they are not "farming" the liquidity fund using the method I described above right before the "snapshots" for rewards are taken.

This would need to start with strict restrictions, which shareholders loosen up until a good compromise as to liquidity, spread, and costs is found. All parameters should be able to be easily tweaked.

@CoinHoarder, with #1-3, there is already incentive to place orders on either side of the book.  Nasdaq's incentives require placing orders on both the bid and the ask, presumably to promote balance.  Which kind of makes sense, although the point of #4 above is to further recognize that in some market conditions it is more risky to be on one side of the book than the other.  So the point is to provide more incentive to be on the riskier i.e. weak side in order to avoid a situation where market makers pull their orders in fear of getting steamrolled.  At the end of the day, if a market maker wants to put larger orders on the weak side of the book, then that is a good thing and they should earn more.  If they choose not to, then they will earn less and that is up to them.  I don't see what is gameable about this in particular.  If you still disagree with that, can you explain further?

I agree that #4 is useful and should be a part of the equation. I think restrictions should still be implemented in the "liquidity reward system" to increase shareholder's acceptance of the proposal, increase its usefulness to non-participating users (not participating in the "reward system",) and decrease the chances it can be gamed. I feel like implementing restrictions would help in all of those areas.

Let me ask you this. Why should someone be allowed to place an order 50% away from the peg and earn any points towards the "reward system"? or 40%? or 30%? How useful are orders that far away from the peg, really? And why would shareholders want some of the funds going to those who place such useless orders? Obviously, some restrictions need to be in place.

Furthermore, it can't simply be a 25%/25%/25%/25% split for each of the criterion. We need to analyze each criteria separately, and deem which should count for more or less weight. Personally, without thinking about it too deeply,  I feel like #3 is more important than #1 is more important than #2 is more important than #4, but this would need a lot of debate to land on something most can agree on.

I'm still not seeing how #4 can be gamed and what restrictions would prevent it.  But I think we should just get something going and tweak it later, so it would make sense to leave #4 out for now considering that it would be more complicated to specify and track, not to mention it's more of a fine tuning that would make sense to add later anyway. 

As for #3, I think orders deeper in the book definitely have value, just not as much value as those closer to the peg.  So this factor could be used to ensure that orders closer to the peg get rewarded much more than those deeper in the book.  Although for the sake of simplicity, perhaps we should just start with 2 bands around the peg, perhaps 1% and 5%.  Question is, how much more valuable is an order within 1% vs 5%, 2X?  3X?  5X? 

By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by 25%/25%/25%/25% split.  Each factor would have it's own range/set of values and when all factors are combined, each order would generate a score. 

In any event, I would imagine we would set a reward pool for each given period and each market maker could earn a total score for the given period and therefore earn a % of the available rewards depending on their share of the overall total score among all market makers during the period. 

Offline Empirical1.2

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Let me ask you this. Why should someone be allowed to place an order 50% away from the peg and earn any points towards the "reward system"? or 40%? or 30%? How useful are orders that far away from the peg, really? And why would shareholders want some of the funds going to those who place such useless orders? Obviously, some restrictions need to be in place.

 +5%

Given the current BTS momentum and spotlight, BTS will gain much more value from implementing an imperfect liquidity subsidy now and adjusting it based on participant behaviour than waiting a few weeks/months to get one right. So if the cost is reasonable to start one, <$100/200 a day, then I would start it sharpish to build on the current attention and momentum & get more people onto the DEX.

And who would do this? CNX is handling stealth. abit?

I don't know what's required. Maybe CNX, they get a bit under-appreciated doing the harder/higher cost dev work that doesn't have an immediate impact on BTS price whereas if this gets implemented while BTS has positive momentum, the results should be immediately visible.
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Offline Akado

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Let me ask you this. Why should someone be allowed to place an order 50% away from the peg and earn any points towards the "reward system"? or 40%? or 30%? How useful are orders that far away from the peg, really? And why would shareholders want some of the funds going to those who place such useless orders? Obviously, some restrictions need to be in place.

 +5%

Given the current BTS momentum and spotlight, BTS will gain much more value from implementing an imperfect liquidity subsidy now and adjusting it based on participant behaviour than waiting a few weeks/months to get one right. So if the cost is reasonable to start one, <$100/200 a day, then I would start it sharpish to build on the current attention and momentum & get more people onto the DEX.

And who would do this? CNX is handling stealth. abit?
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Let me ask you this. Why should someone be allowed to place an order 50% away from the peg and earn any points towards the "reward system"? or 40%? or 30%? How useful are orders that far away from the peg, really? And why would shareholders want some of the funds going to those who place such useless orders? Obviously, some restrictions need to be in place.

 +5%

Given the current BTS momentum and spotlight, BTS will gain much more value from implementing an imperfect liquidity subsidy now and adjusting it based on participant behaviour than waiting a few weeks/months to get one right. So if the cost is reasonable to start one, <$100/200 a day, then I would start it sharpish to build on the current attention and momentum & get more people onto the DEX.
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline CoinHoarder

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I assume the algorithm can take into account a 4th factor - buy/sell order imbalances - to reward market makers more for placing orders on the weak side of the book.  So 4 factors now include:

1. order size
2. time on book
3. proximity to best bid/ask
4. strong/weak side of book

Thoughts about coding this @abit, @xeroc?

The fourth factor seems "gameable". Someone could place a large amount on the opposite position that their order is on, for a small cost (just a cancel order fee,) effectively boosting their portion of the liquidity pool for fairly cheap. To combat this and other issues consider adding the following restrictions:

A. There should be a maximum percentage away from the price feed that someone can qualify for these awards. This ensures that the funds they put on the books will be at risk of market making (which can be profitable and unprofitable). This makes sure they are providing useful liquidity to shareholders. After all, shareholders are paying for the liquidity fund.
B. A minimum amount of time for each user to have orders on the books in each trading pair separately is also necessary to combat this. Requirement A makes sure they are providing useful liquidity, and subject to market making risks.  Requirement B makes sure that they are providing that useful liquidity and subject to market making risks for a reasonable amount of time. It makes sure they are not "farming" the liquidity fund using the method I described above right before the "snapshots" for rewards are taken.

This would need to start with strict restrictions, which shareholders loosen up until a good compromise as to liquidity, spread, and costs is found. All parameters should be able to be easily tweaked.

@CoinHoarder, with #1-3, there is already incentive to place orders on either side of the book.  Nasdaq's incentives require placing orders on both the bid and the ask, presumably to promote balance.  Which kind of makes sense, although the point of #4 above is to further recognize that in some market conditions it is more risky to be on one side of the book than the other.  So the point is to provide more incentive to be on the riskier i.e. weak side in order to avoid a situation where market makers pull their orders in fear of getting steamrolled.  At the end of the day, if a market maker wants to put larger orders on the weak side of the book, then that is a good thing and they should earn more.  If they choose not to, then they will earn less and that is up to them.  I don't see what is gameable about this in particular.  If you still disagree with that, can you explain further?

I agree that #4 is useful and should be a part of the equation. I think restrictions should still be implemented in the "liquidity reward system" to increase shareholder's acceptance of the proposal, increase its usefulness to non-participating users (not participating in the "reward system",) and decrease the chances it can be gamed. I feel like implementing restrictions would help in all of those areas.

Let me ask you this. Why should someone be allowed to place an order 50% away from the peg and earn any points towards the "reward system"? or 40%? or 30%? How useful are orders that far away from the peg, really? And why would shareholders want some of the funds going to those who place such useless orders? Obviously, some restrictions need to be in place.

Furthermore, it can't simply be a 25%/25%/25%/25% split for each of the criterion. We need to analyze each criteria separately, and deem which should count for more or less weight. Personally, without thinking about it too deeply,  I feel like #3 is more important than #1 is more important than #2 is more important than #4, but this would need a lot of debate to land on something most can agree on.

By the way, I would imagine that determining which side of the book, if any, is weak at any given time is not a trivial matter.  Although it really shouldn't be too difficult to take into account a short time-frame running average of cumulative trades at the ask vs. trades at the bid, and perhaps also comparing short-term price delta to medium-term price delta.  I would imagine that ultimately people will create bots to most effectively take advantage of these reward factors, which is fine because that means they are putting liquidity where we need it most.  Thoughts?
It should not be a problem determining what side of the book is weak. There is a graph of the market depth in the client, so the data points seem to be there and retrievable, but I am not a BTS API expert. @xeroc probably knows?
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Offline tbone

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I assume the algorithm can take into account a 4th factor - buy/sell order imbalances - to reward market makers more for placing orders on the weak side of the book.  So 4 factors now include:

1. order size
2. time on book
3. proximity to best bid/ask
4. strong/weak side of book

Thoughts about coding this @abit, @xeroc?

The fourth factor seems "gameable". Someone could place a large amount on the opposite position that their order is on, for a small cost (just a cancel order fee,) effectively boosting their portion of the liquidity pool for fairly cheap. To combat this and other issues consider adding the following restrictions:

A. There should be a maximum percentage away from the price feed that someone can qualify for these awards. This ensures that the funds they put on the books will be at risk of market making (which can be profitable and unprofitable). This makes sure they are providing useful liquidity to shareholders. After all, shareholders are paying for the liquidity fund.
B. A minimum amount of time for each user to have orders on the books in each trading pair separately is also necessary to combat this. Requirement A makes sure they are providing useful liquidity, and subject to market making risks.  Requirement B makes sure that they are providing that useful liquidity and subject to market making risks for a reasonable amount of time. It makes sure they are not "farming" the liquidity fund using the method I described above right before the "snapshots" for rewards are taken.

This would need to start with strict restrictions, which shareholders loosen up until a good compromise as to liquidity, spread, and costs is found. All parameters should be able to be easily tweaked.

@CoinHoarder, with #1-3, there is already incentive to place orders on either side of the book.  Nasdaq's incentives require placing orders on both the bid and the ask, presumably to promote balance.  Which kind of makes sense, although the point of #4 above is to further recognize that in some market conditions it is more risky to be on one side of the book than the other.  So the point is to provide more incentive to be on the riskier i.e. weak side in order to avoid a situation where market makers pull their orders in fear of getting steamrolled.  At the end of the day, if a market maker wants to put larger orders on the weak side of the book, then that is a good thing and they should earn more.  If they choose not to, then they will earn less and that is up to them.  I don't see what is gameable about this in particular.  If you still disagree with that, can you explain further?

By the way, I would imagine that determining which side of the book, if any, is weak at any given time is not a trivial matter.  Although it really shouldn't be too difficult to take into account a short time-frame running average of cumulative trades at the ask vs. trades at the bid, and perhaps also comparing short-term price delta to medium-term price delta.  I would imagine that ultimately people will create bots to most effectively take advantage of these reward factors, which is fine because that means they are putting liquidity where we need it most.  Thoughts?