Author Topic: My failed attempt at trying to explain BitShares and OL to C-CEX. Help needed.  (Read 23594 times)

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Offline Akado

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Maybe with BitShares that wouldn't happen, assuming their argument can even be considered legit..
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/48dcm9/cexio_seems_to_be_suffering_from_some_kind_of/

Another one
Likely a BTC issue. I don't think BitShares is able to help in this case.

While that might be true, with BitShares you would get multiple bridges to send your funds to and withdraw them, you wouldn't be dependent on one single entity not being able to release your coins.

If the problem was with the Bitcoin blockchain, no one from any other exchange would be able to withdraw their coins at this very moment and panic would start. This is something CEX.io specific.
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Offline abit

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Maybe with BitShares that wouldn't happen, assuming their argument can even be considered legit..
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/48dcm9/cexio_seems_to_be_suffering_from_some_kind_of/

Another one
Likely a BTC issue. I don't think BitShares is able to help in this case.
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Offline Akado

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Offline Akado

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See this interesting reply by Kraken

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41vhzz/im_jesse_powell_cofounder_ceo_at_kraken_ama/cz5ijoz

"n the future, we'd like to enable trading without needing to take complete custody of the user's coins, possibly through a separate multisig wallet for each user, in which Kraken only controls 1/3 keys."

Could this something around these lines be the solution?

Also...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41vhzz/im_jesse_powell_cofounder_ceo_at_kraken_ama/cz5fv26

"No plans at the moment but I don't think more consolidation would be a bad thing. We are open to acquiring more exchanges, and open to being acquired."

Murderistic told us they wouldn't deal with BitShares, ever, however, maybe someday in the future we might be able to acquire it  :P Let's see BTS reach a higher marketcap and make a hostile takeover.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 10:01:12 pm by Akado »
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Offline abit

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Thank you @Stan, the referral program makes sense for the smaller entities here. But it requires that some percentage of UIA trading fees go to the referral program. UIA issuers and referrers do have arguments about this.

In regards to the EBA concept, imo it somehow conflicts with shared order book concept. From 2 or more member exchanges which have similar sizes, you can only get EBAs OR shared order book, not both. Smaller exchanges can adopt EBAs issued by big ones and share their order book though, like USD. Smaller ones can also united together and issue another EBA like EUR (big ones can united together as well).

So in conclusion we can give out two choices to targeted exchanges (which are our potential partners):
1. Adopt EBA's issued by existed partners(or maybe a union of some partners), and get shared order book,
2. Issue their own EBA's and compete with others.
To promote the first one we need liquidity, to promote the second one need user base.
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Offline Stan

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An issue of shared order book strategy just came to my head. In short, if we try to get small exchanges adopt BitShares first, we will probably harder to get the big ones.

Say if we have already 3 small exchanges happily operating on top of BitShares. One day, come in another big exchange, which is bigger than the combination of the 3 small ones, guess what will happen? I guess, either the small ones be unhappy that some customers may go to trade with the big one, or the big one will be unhappy that it have to accept tokens issued by the small ones and/or have to ask the small ones for approval when need to issue shared tokens / withdraw from shared collateral. Will this cooperation schema succeed?

Anyway, at least the small ones should be able to survive at very first. When we're getting bigger and bigger, I don't know if the small ones can still survive.

Thoughts?


Presumably the smaller exchanges have some strategy for getting folks to sign up from some other universe (national demographic, affinity group, marketing twist, etc.)  Otherwise why start a new exchange?  They surely aren't trying to compete on initial liquidity. 

By getting there first, the smaller exchanges have a chance to be the referrer for people who also use the bigger exchange.  So the late comers will not be able to claim those already-referred customers unless they change their account name. 

Small exchange owners want their users to use big exchange products and services because they get the network fees from users they signed up.

So having bigger exchanges come in is mostly upside.  New exchanges still have their unique source of new users and now have the depth of the bigger exchange to offer them.

Meanwhile, the bigger exchange has access to the new customers from the smaller exchanges who want access to the big exchanges more mature products and services.

And anyone can compete to provide the best Exchange Backed Asset (EBA) as a reserve currency for trading against the union of everybody's assets.  (Being big is one reason to trust an EBA, but bigness alone isn't decisive.)  Putting up a better form of multi-sig controlled collateral and transparent 100% hackproof backing could be done by any sized exchange.

And since all EBAs are sold into existence, any size exchange can innovate in what to do with the assets they receive "on deposit" for their EBAs.  So the best technology wins, not the deepest pockets.

Before long, some EBA will emerge as the perfect "checking" (not saving) currency that you hold and use for a short time exposure to a counterparty because of its perfect peg and blazing speed.   (Savings are held in counterparty free MPAs).

Best of both worlds and you can move between them in 3 seconds.

Since nanocards can tap any bitshares account, you can spend any of these at any merchant immediately.

After that, exactly what do you need other cryptos for at all?   

The BitShares Exchange Network, for the first time, lets Exchange Backed Assets serve as real merchant currencies not just poker chips limited to use on a stove pipe exchange.



« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 03:33:32 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline abit

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An issue of shared order book strategy just came to my head. In short, if we try to get small exchanges adopt BitShares first, we will probably harder to get the big ones.

Say if we have already 3 small exchanges happily operating on top of BitShares. One day, come in another big exchange, which is bigger than the combination of the 3 small ones, guess what will happen? I guess, either the small ones be unhappy that some customers may go to trade with the big one, or the big one will be unhappy that it have to accept tokens issued by the small ones and/or have to ask the small ones for approval when need to issue shared tokens / withdraw from shared collateral. Will this cooperation schema succeed?

Anyway, at least the small ones should be able to survive at very first. When we're getting bigger and bigger, I don't know if the small ones can still survive.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 03:10:08 pm by abit »
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Offline Samupaha

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The main challenge I see here is "users" or say "customers". They said "I don't want to send users elsewhere". However, unless an exchange let their customer register on BitShares platform, it's difficult to use BitShares's Market Engine. Even CCEDK has both a self maintained engine + self maintained user database, and BitShares Engine + BitShares user registration entry, which are independent to each other so far.

So another challenge is resource. In this way the exchanges have to split efforts between 2 platforms. It's hard if they haven't enough resources.

Yeah, these are good points.

So we should focus on exchanges:
- That are just starting. They don't have their own market engine yet. They can start with Bitshares blockchain and speed up their launching.
- That have crappy market engine. It needs complete rewriting. They don't need to do that, they can just change to Bitshares blockchain.

The target is of course to have the exchange use only our blockchain and not their own market engine. Most potential exchanges are those who are in a need of a market engine.

If the exchange has already a good market engine and devs that can handle all necessary development, we don't have much to offer at this point. Maybe best scenario would be that they are interested in becoming a gateway.

Offline abit

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Akado, I think you are a little bit too fixated to the shared orderbook and common asset thing. I agree that it would be great to see that but given that it's very difficult to achieve I don't think that we should focus on that right now.

First, let's try to get at least one exchange to use Bitshares blockchain as their trading engine (besides OL).

This is how I would market it:

You can use Bitshares blockchain as a trading engine: You can either use it just for your own tokens or let users trade all assets that are available. No need for development and maintenance of your own trading engine.

You need to do only the GUI, hot and cold wallets and a gateway to handle the deposits and withdraws.

Users will use IOU-tokens in the blockchain, issued by your gateway.

Whitelisting is optional. This means that you can restrict how your IOUs are traded. For example, you could have BTC-IOU that can be traded freely in the blockchain, and you could have USD-IOU that can be traded only by those accounts that are identified, and only with IOUs that are issued by you.

You will get a share of the transaction fees when users make transactions with the assets that you have issued.

You can make extra money by referring users to the Bitshares blockchain. You will get referral income automatically, handled by the blockchain, everytime when users make transactions. For exchanges this might bring significant amount of extra revenue.

Steps:
1. Create GUI for your exchange and a gateway with hot and cold wallets.
2. Issue UIA for all assets that you are going to use.
3. Start marketing and advertising.
Technically it's possible, but not easy. Think about these questions: what they need to invest by doing so? What they will get in return? At what risk?

The main challenge I see here is "users" or say "customers". They said "I don't want to send users elsewhere". However, unless an exchange let their customer register on BitShares platform, it's difficult to use BitShares's Market Engine. Even CCEDK has both a self maintained engine + self maintained user database, and BitShares Engine + BitShares user registration entry, which are independent to each other so far.

So another challenge is resource. In this way the exchanges have to split efforts between 2 platforms. It's hard if they haven't enough resources.

See my lists above, we need strong reasons to convince the exchanges to join us.
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Offline Samupaha

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Akado, I think you are a little bit too fixated to the shared orderbook and common asset thing. I agree that it would be great to see that but given that it's very difficult to achieve I don't think that we should focus on that right now.

First, let's try to get at least one exchange to use Bitshares blockchain as their trading engine (besides OL).

This is how I would market it:

You can use Bitshares blockchain as a trading engine: You can either use it just for your own tokens or let users trade all assets that are available. No need for development and maintenance of your own trading engine.

You need to do only the GUI, hot and cold wallets and a gateway to handle the deposits and withdraws.

Users will use IOU-tokens in the blockchain, issued by your gateway.

Whitelisting is optional. This means that you can restrict how your IOUs are traded. For example, you could have BTC-IOU that can be traded freely in the blockchain, and you could have USD-IOU that can be traded only by those accounts that are identified, and only with IOUs that are issued by you.

You will get a share of the transaction fees when users make transactions with the assets that you have issued.

You can make extra money by referring users to the Bitshares blockchain. You will get referral income automatically, handled by the blockchain, everytime when users make transactions. For exchanges this might bring significant amount of extra revenue.

Steps:
1. Create GUI for your exchange and a gateway with hot and cold wallets.
2. Issue UIA for all assets that you are going to use.
3. Start marketing and advertising.

Offline Akado

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BitShares is about freedom .. no wait to force anyone to do anything ..

It is also a risky thing to have their assets locked away as collateral

Could we have a rule that an exchange must keep say %10 or %20 of their volume in collateral for BTAs? Just like banks have to maintain a reserve.

No one is forcing them to do anything, I believe that was just a suggestion, even if we agreed with that, it would ultimately be up to the exchanges to decide..

Still, I think it's way easier for them to have their btc for example, in a multi sig account managed by the exchanges participating. This would mean it's in everyone's interest not to mess things up and they could be easily monitored among themselves and by users too. And it's simple.

Thing is while we don't sort these kind of details first, it will be harder to get liquidity. Instead even if we manage them to join we'll most likely have a bunch of illiquid markets, plus we still have the risk factor of them going rogue.
If all exchanges put their (real) BTC in a multi-sig account, they're less likely to go rogue. They will monitor each other. And also the IOU issuer's account would be a multi-sig one which is anti-rogue.

However, although it's not hard to multi-sig a BTC account, imo it's much harder to multi-sig fiat accounts. In addition, is it possible to multi-sig accounts of LTC, DOGE and so? In the end maybe we can have a shared BTS/BTC market, but no other pairs.

Seems we're discussing a global (IOU of)BTC central bank schema.

Yes I'm discussing a global IOU/asset with the objective of making shared order books possible as I see they could bring great benefits.
Well I'd say fiat is different because one would only trade to fiat when he wants to cash out using the services as bridges.

As for the other currencies I assumed there are multi signature accounts for them too.. But you might be right, that doesn't mean they exist or every coin we decide to bring in has... Maybe the biggest ones have? Aren't there wallets which support multi currencies and multi signatures? Maybe that could do the trick.

Even if they don't have it, at least we could have shared order books on the main coins. btc, ltc, dash maybe?
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Offline abit

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BitShares is about freedom .. no wait to force anyone to do anything ..

It is also a risky thing to have their assets locked away as collateral

Could we have a rule that an exchange must keep say %10 or %20 of their volume in collateral for BTAs? Just like banks have to maintain a reserve.

No one is forcing them to do anything, I believe that was just a suggestion, even if we agreed with that, it would ultimately be up to the exchanges to decide..

Still, I think it's way easier for them to have their btc for example, in a multi sig account managed by the exchanges participating. This would mean it's in everyone's interest not to mess things up and they could be easily monitored among themselves and by users too. And it's simple.

Thing is while we don't sort these kind of details first, it will be harder to get liquidity. Instead even if we manage them to join we'll most likely have a bunch of illiquid markets, plus we still have the risk factor of them going rogue.
If all exchanges put their (real) BTC in a multi-sig account, they're less likely to go rogue. They will monitor each other. And also the IOU issuer's account would be a multi-sig one which is anti-rogue.

However, although it's not hard to multi-sig a BTC account, imo it's much harder to multi-sig fiat accounts. In addition, is it possible to multi-sig accounts of LTC, DOGE and so? In the end maybe we can have a shared BTS/BTC market, but no other pairs.

Seems we're discussing a global (IOU of)BTC central bank schema.
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Offline Akado

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BitShares is about freedom .. no wait to force anyone to do anything ..

It is also a risky thing to have their assets locked away as collateral

Could we have a rule that an exchange must keep say %10 or %20 of their volume in collateral for BTAs? Just like banks have to maintain a reserve.

No one is forcing them to do anything, I believe that was just a suggestion, even if we agreed with that, it would ultimately be up to the exchanges to decide..

Still, I think it's way easier for them to have their btc for example, in a multi sig account managed by the exchanges participating. This would mean it's in everyone's interest not to mess things up and they could be easily monitored among themselves and by users too. And it's simple.

Thing is while we don't sort these kind of details first, it will be harder to get liquidity. Instead even if we manage them to join we'll most likely have a bunch of illiquid markets, plus we still have the risk factor of them going rogue.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 08:12:42 pm by Akado »
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Offline xeroc

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BitShares is about freedom .. no wait to force anyone to do anything ..

It is also a risky thing to have their assets locked away as collateral

Could we have a rule that an exchange must keep say %10 or %20 of their volume in collateral for BTAs? Just like banks have to maintain a reserve.

Offline Pheonike


Could we have a rule that an exchange must keep say %10 or %20 of their volume in collateral for BTAs? Just like banks have to maintain a reserve.