Author Topic: Reasons for Lowering Fees  (Read 29045 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Thanks. No problem on those fees. It is still a big jump from 2 BTS. I hope the committee charge a percentage of the amount e.g. 1-5% per transaction rather than a fixed rate.

Just making sure the figures are right since I have to discuss these fees within my network.
IIRC, the proposed schedule has had a high fee in the beginning an was reduced to the equivalent of $2 after hearing input from businesses and shareholders.

Offline compumatrix

Thanks. No problem on those fees. It is still a big jump from 2 BTS. I hope the committee charge a percentage of the amount e.g. 1-5% per transaction rather than a fixed rate.

Just making sure the figures are right since I have to discuss these fees within my network.

Offline cube

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Nice to see a lower fee schedule for some functions.. and reasonable fees for the Asset-specific operations..

Except when one withdraws vesting balance with a minimum fee of 467 right now.. quite a large jump from 2 BTS... I didn't notice that yesterday when I withdrew 139 bts with a fee of 467 bts... losing 328 bitshares in the process...Also looking at the fee schedule, since I'm a lifetime member... shouldn't that charge me 93.54571 BTS? seems to have charged me a standard fee...

Yes, there is a rise from 2bts to 467 bts due to the recent fee schedule change (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21368.msg281599.html#msg281599).  There were no feedback on vesting withdrawal change nor any objection from users in that thread.  If you find the increase too high or not right, you may feedback your view to the committee who can consider revising it.

You are being charged 467 bts now but the difference (457-93 bts) would go into your vesting balance.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 04:30:31 am by cube »
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Nice to see a lower fee schedule for some functions.. and reasonable fees for the Asset-specific operations..

Except when one withdraws vesting balance with a minimum fee of 467 right now.. quite a large jump from 2 BTS... I didn't notice that yesterday when I withdrew 139 bts with a fee of 467 bts... losing 328 bitshares in the process...Also looking at the fee schedule, since I'm a lifetime member... shouldn't that charge me 93.54571 BTS? seems to have charged me a standard fee...

The everyday transactions were drastically reduced while occasional or one time transactions were increased. Vesting balances were among them as they are generally used only once or twice a month generally per user on the high frequency end.

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Offline compumatrix

Nice to see a lower fee schedule for some functions.. and reasonable fees for the Asset-specific operations..

Except when one withdraws vesting balance with a minimum fee of 467 right now.. quite a large jump from 2 BTS... I didn't notice that yesterday when I withdrew 139 bts with a fee of 467 bts... losing 328 bitshares in the process...Also looking at the fee schedule, since I'm a lifetime member... shouldn't that charge me 93.54571 BTS? seems to have charged me a standard fee...


Offline Akado

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Set a special kind of account. User pays a fee to get it similar to lifetime membership. Has extremely low fees. Only allows small transactions. That allows for micro payments. Still can be used to spam the network though.

Maybe add some kind of restriction where those type of accounts can perform more than X amount of transactions per second. 1 per second seems fine by now. Only way to spam the network would be to have 1000s of accounts of that type and have them all perform transactions at the same time but if members have to pay a fee to register then that makes the attack way way more difficult. No one will pay a fee of 5k bts or 10k bts thousands of times.

This also doesnt make life time membership obsolete since it still has more advantages like no restriction on the amount of bts per transaction, referral program, etc members could even have them both on the same account
This is interesting.

That's very interesting.
It can be easily implemented (I hope) and can be easily explained to the user.
It's perhaps not practicable.
From my personal experience, an average Joe doesn't want to pay a fee in advance if don't know how much will spend on fees in the future. People intend to spend less money now and care less about costs in the future, that's why installment loans have market.
A common user of a bank will be always charged a fee if she withdraw from other bank's ATM, but a premium user won't be charged since she has already paid a higher annual fee or similar. So rich people are more likely to pay for a premium, but actually they care less about fees in micro payments. On opposite, the ones who have more needs on micro payments are less likely to pay for a premium in advance.

But this would be directed to services and not users though.. If people registered an account through that service what really could happen would be the service creating a "sub-account" with the same proprieties and share some of it's permissions to the user could use it. That way you have user's benefiting from this without having to pay the fee. Only micropayment services would pay for this, not the users
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Offline abit

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Set a special kind of account. User pays a fee to get it similar to lifetime membership. Has extremely low fees. Only allows small transactions. That allows for micro payments. Still can be used to spam the network though.

Maybe add some kind of restriction where those type of accounts can perform more than X amount of transactions per second. 1 per second seems fine by now. Only way to spam the network would be to have 1000s of accounts of that type and have them all perform transactions at the same time but if members have to pay a fee to register then that makes the attack way way more difficult. No one will pay a fee of 5k bts or 10k bts thousands of times.

This also doesnt make life time membership obsolete since it still has more advantages like no restriction on the amount of bts per transaction, referral program, etc members could even have them both on the same account
This is interesting.

That's very interesting.
It can be easily implemented (I hope) and can be easily explained to the user.
It's perhaps not practicable.
From my personal experience, an average Joe doesn't want to pay a fee in advance if don't know how much will spend on fees in the future. People intend to spend less money now and care less about costs in the future, that's why installment loans have market.
A common user of a bank will be always charged a fee if she withdraw from other bank's ATM, but a premium user won't be charged since she has already paid a higher annual fee or similar. So rich people are more likely to pay for a premium, but actually they care less about fees in micro payments. On opposite, the ones who have more needs on micro payments are less likely to pay for a premium in advance.
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Offline yvv

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Charging percentage based fees just links us back to legacy finance...  There is no advantage in crypto if it is going to cost me $1000 to buy $100,000 of something whether I use cash or crypto.


Set 1% fee with $1 maximum. This will encourage large transactions (more than $100) and discourage smaller transactions, but not hard enough to prohibit shopping in a dollar store.

Minimum, like $0.001, will also be required to prevent spam.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 11:40:46 pm by yvv »

38PTSWarrior

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jakub

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Set a special kind of account. User pays a fee to get it similar to lifetime membership. Has extremely low fees. Only allows small transactions. That allows for micro payments. Still can be used to spam the network though.

Maybe add some kind of restriction where those type of accounts can perform more than X amount of transactions per second. 1 per second seems fine by now. Only way to spam the network would be to have 1000s of accounts of that type and have them all perform transactions at the same time but if members have to pay a fee to register then that makes the attack way way more difficult. No one will pay a fee of 5k bts or 10k bts thousands of times.

This also doesnt make life time membership obsolete since it still has more advantages like no restriction on the amount of bts per transaction, referral program, etc members could even have them both on the same account
This is interesting.

That's very interesting.
It can be easily implemented (I hope) and can be easily explained to the user.

Offline abit

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Set a special kind of account. User pays a fee to get it similar to lifetime membership. Has extremely low fees. Only allows small transactions. That allows for micro payments. Still can be used to spam the network though.

Maybe add some kind of restriction where those type of accounts can perform more than X amount of transactions per second. 1 per second seems fine by now. Only way to spam the network would be to have 1000s of accounts of that type and have them all perform transactions at the same time but if members have to pay a fee to register then that makes the attack way way more difficult. No one will pay a fee of 5k bts or 10k bts thousands of times.

This also doesnt make life time membership obsolete since it still has more advantages like no restriction on the amount of bts per transaction, referral program, etc members could even have them both on the same account
This is interesting.
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Offline puppies

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Percentage based transfer fees for bitassets with a minimum and maximum would be a great development.   UIA's could keep a single transfer fee. 
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38PTSWarrior

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Easy for marketing.
So you tell your customer that s/he needs to spend $1.10 so that the recipient gets $1.00 - that's easy marketing for you?
Even a debit card does not charge people like that.
Good point, in the beginning it was 3 cent.

Dunno, 10 cent for 1 euro is ok. But only when we heavily start to make bts loveable through social real approach. So the people have a reason to use us.

jakub

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Easy for marketing.
So you tell your customer that s/he needs to spend $1.10 so that the recipient gets $1.00 - that's easy marketing for you?
Even a debit card does not charge people like that.

Offline emailtooaj

I've been a BIG fan for % based fees for some time now.  There's so many moving parts within Bitshares that there isn't a one size fits all "fix" for our fee structure.
I still believe in what I said awhile back...
Someone mentioned earlier we need a sales person's perspective... so I'll throw in my 2 bits.
I agree that the majority here is correctly identifying that Bitshares main core is (and I'm listing in order what I see as priority)...
1) The DEX
2) Core SmartCoins (USD, CNY, EURO, etc.)

Since the DEX is the main backbone of our system, IMO it would be silly to over tax the activity of the exchange and in turn, dry up any incentive for future/present trading.  The only way (again IMO) is to set trading activity fees pegged to a percentage. I can see 0.5% being a great starting charge for trading fee's, but capped at 300 or so BTS, allowing those Large Quantity (ie Big Player) traders ample breathing room to play.
Putting this in a number perspective...
3000 BTS order = 15 BTS fee
20,000 BTS order = 100 BTS fee
60,000+ BTS order = 300 BTS fee
I don't see how you can effectively and fairly asses a "regional" fee or flat fee when it comes to DEX trading.

Obviously we all know that BTS (the underlying share) is the crucial life force, so squeezing that available supply of BTS will help increase BTS value while also "guiding" people to start utilizing SmartCoin's more as the primary currency, while also giving more demand for creating more USD, which is what we want correct?   
So for a BTS Transfer fee, in my mind, should be a flat somewhat higher tiered fee...
1 to <100 BTS = 1 BTS fee
100> -1000 BTS = 5 BTS flat fee
and then 1 BTS per 1000 BTS thereafter and cap it a 500 BTS threshold.

For CORE SmartCoin transfer fee's.. I'd make it a percentage base fee of 0.05% and cap it at $5 USD (or it's equivalent to that specific SmartCoin).
So a $100 USD transfer would cost five cents ($0.05). 
$10,000+ USD would be $5 USD fee
Again, this will help keep Big players in the game to do big money transfers utilizing SmartCoins.

For UIA's transfer fees... again, I'd make it a low percentage like the CORE asset fees I just mentioned.  I almost hate saying this... but I could see it making sense to ONLY use CORE SmartCoin's for the transfer fee's of UIA's. 

So all-in-all keep DEX fees low.  Create higher friction for BTS transfers.  SmartCoin fees low to keep the flow!
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