Author Topic: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!  (Read 7298 times)

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Offline tbone

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I agree with those saying Poloniex's UI is not one that we should emulate to a tee.  It's a decent interface, but not great by any stretch.  The reason they are so popular is that they have almost any coin one might want to trade, they are US-based and trustworthy, and they get a lot more right than Bittrex (whose UI is a total abomination).  So that's why Poloniex has been so successful and Bittrex is getting very little traction.  Not to mention Poloniex has lending.  Obviously we could greatly benefit from lending, but that is a big project and there is other lower hanging fruit, although hopefully a growing market cap will afford us the opportunity to work on more projects in parallel.   

In any event, we should take what is good from Poloniex and improve what isn't so good.  In fact, that's what @svk has been trying to do and the UI has come a long way.  I can't imagine the reference wallet is ever going to be a professional trading platform.  That will likely have to be delivered by 3rd parties.  I imagine even an MT4 integration will likely be delivered by a 3rd party.  Either way, that is not going to happen instantly, and in the meantime there are obviously improvements we can and should make. 

For example, we need basic position management capability (e.g. showing open positions with P/L, etc), which I started bringing up recently.  We also need order types beyond the standard limit and market orders, such as stop-loss, stop limit, take profit, trailing stops, etc.  The chart also needs a lot of work (especially the indicators), although I don't see it as the highest priority since it's not difficult to use external charting.  So for the time being (until higher priority items are completed), basic charting without useful indicators is good enough.   

Finally, the issue of multiple versions of the same base asset (i.e. BTC, USD, etc) is not caused by the interface.  It's just the nature of the DEX.  Although sidechains should help eliminate multiple versions of BTC and other digital assets.  And perhaps much more liquid fiat BitAssets will help eliminate the need for the fiat IOU tokens.  In the meantime, the way the markets are grouped now should at least help in this regard.  I think we should give @svk credit for a lot of excellent work on the UI.  Let's keep making progress. 

Offline hcf27

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I agree with this, its stressfull having to log in the DEX all the time to look at your margin, if you had a stop loss option you could sleep better at night  :D

Quote
2.Is there a way to put a stop loss or take profit order?
Because right now I can't figure out how to do it.  This means there is no money management ability.  Without the ability to manage a trade, the DEX is unusable for serious traders.  There needs to be at a minim stop loss orders.  There really should be a way to put trailing stops in as well.

Offline xh3

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the Bitshares API could be wrapped in something that matches those specs

Offline xh3

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this should all  be handled by the trader-coders.  I would love to help in any way I can

Offline lil_jay890

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It looks like MT4 is free to download for iOS and for Android. Definitely worth integrating with DEX, if possible.

MT4 works through a licensing approach.  It's not paid for on a "per trader" basis.  Usually a broker buys a license in which he can have a certain amount of traders trade on.  I believe there are "unlimited trader" licenses as well.  The broker foots the bill for the platform, but makes money back as traders use him as their broker.

Cost of the license would be around 100k i'm guessing.  There are other cheaper and better alternatives, but MT4 is the most popular.

The biggest issue is that we need to have order types that match standard forex order types... Limits, stops, market, etc
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 07:02:37 pm by lil_jay890 »

Offline yvv

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It looks like MT4 is free to download for iOS and for Android. Definitely worth integrating with DEX, if possible.

Offline yvv

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Having to purchase MT4 is not an obstacle for serious traders.

Can serious traders cover integration cost? :)

Offline xh3

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Having to purchase MT4 is not an obstacle for serious traders.

Offline yvv

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Real platforms have interactive charts, script editors, more than 4 indicators and so much more.... Polo has none of that.

All this stuff does not appear from the air. It takes full time labour of dozens or even hundreds of developers to create a professional trading platform. This is not feasible for a small open source project.

I agree it would be dumb for us to do all this from scratch.  But there are several platforms out there, my preference being MT4, that already have everything we need to be viewed as a professional exchange.  All we need to do is incorporate our system with theirs.  This is feasible for a small open source project.

But then you need to buy MT4 to trade on DEX. How good are open source clones of MT4? There should be a bunch of them.

Offline lil_jay890

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Real platforms have interactive charts, script editors, more than 4 indicators and so much more.... Polo has none of that.

All this stuff does not appear from the air. It takes full time labour of dozens or even hundreds of developers to create a professional trading platform. This is not feasible for a small open source project.

I agree it would be dumb for us to do all this from scratch.  But there are several platforms out there, my preference being MT4, that already have everything we need to be viewed as a professional exchange.  All we need to do is incorporate our system with theirs.  This is feasible for a small open source project.

Offline xh3

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This opens up into a larger discussion on how to make the DEX attractive to traders.
       
        Who are these traders and what are their values?
               Who are serious traders?
                    What types of serous traders are there?
                          What is the thing they all want?
        What is really necessary to become the best game in town?
               What is the best game in town?
                   What is the best game in all of trading?
                      What is the best game in crypto-trading?
                          What do they all have in Common?
How to Implement what traders want?
     How to delegate roles?
         Is there anything in the protocol itself that can be modified to make trading more attractive?
             Can the protocol interface with other widely used trading tools?
         What sorts of extensions could be written to extend functionality to less technically savvy traders?
             What type of Apps, services, and businesses would need to be in place to stimulate trade?
                    How to stimulate such development.

------------

"Serious" traders do not generally trade in the crypto because it does not meet their criteria for safety.  I suspect that the development that they are waiting on is legal.  All other risks can be quantified, but the liabilities involved in trading crypto are not well defined, and the methodology for safely doing so has not been exposed .

The types of traders in crypto tend to have a reckless gambler's edge, but they too are proving the thing that they want.
Traders want everything to be solid up to the point where they're deciding whether to buy, sell, or hold.  Traders want to be free to just trade, because the mental bandwidth required to trade well doesn't leave room for other concerns.

The best trading platforms take this into account, and deliver the capabilities to traders that they need in order to just trade.  Think of trading Nasdaq on Tradestation.... what's on your mind besides just making good trades?
The best platforms in crypto do not even approximate that experience really.  Personally I feel mostly fine on Bitfinex, but when trading Polo I feel like there's something nasty around the corner, the whole thing seems glitchy, and I have a hard time getting the information I use to trade with. However, I still trade there because it provides a number of liquid volatile markets that I can trade at with leverage.... which is worth quite a bit to a trader.
Traders are just opportunists really, if you create opportunity, they will show up to harness it.

All that being said, I think we can all agree that the first and primary business of crypto-currency is the speculation on it's own value, and that success in the space right now involves granting people the ability to exchange things.

I'm fuzzy on the current implementation details of the bitshares protocol, but it does provide basic market services.

       I do wish it provided the capability for an issuer to buy all possible asset names starting with a numeric prefix eg.
       I buy all possible asset names beginning with 854-896-5547..... etc.
       this would allow me to issue assets and everybody knows that if it's in my               prefix, it's mine.  I can later use this in my app to organize
       my markets and alias my assets in the UI.

The development I would like to see as a shareholder is in apps, businesses, gateways, partnerships, etc.
Let the protocol provide basic clearing services and capabilities.  Let third party developers grind out some apps to leverage it.
Interfacing with MT4 would be a great thing, but if that's not possible, some sort of clone of it would be useful too.

In general anything that can be done to make it easier for traders to just trade, and for there to be ample opportunity when they do, will be for the better of the DEX.






Offline yvv

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Real platforms have interactive charts, script editors, more than 4 indicators and so much more.... Polo has none of that.

All this stuff does not appear from the air. It takes full time labour of dozens or even hundreds of developers to create a professional trading platform. This is not feasible for a small open source project.

Offline Akado

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@lil_jay890 I think you should expose that on today's mumble to get more attention. people cant ignore someone with experience
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Offline lil_jay890

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I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/


Yep.  The DEX needs to make itself look exactly like Poloniex.  Imitate whats working or die.

The Poloniex DEX is nothing special... it's actually very limited.  Pro traders would think you are joking if you told them that was the interface you were trading on and expected them to trade on.  It just happens to be a popular site with a very small niche group of extremely novice retail traders...

Settling for that basic interface would be a big mistake imo...  Just because there is a troll box doesn't make it a good platform.

Real platforms have interactive charts, script editors, more than 4 indicators and so much more.... Polo has none of that.

Offline Ander

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I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/


Yep.  The DEX needs to make itself look exactly like Poloniex.  Imitate whats working or die.
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