too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!

[konelectric]

I think the biggest threat to centralized exchanges is yet to come. As governments go broke, they might seize half of everyone's assets.

[xh3]

I love to trade, and I would have to agree with @ll_jay890.  It's not a serious choice because serious trading needs a few things that the DEX  and GUI lack.

 It needs order management, it needs to be quantifiable in terms of risk,
 it needs a great API,
and it needs the capability to place leveraged trades. 

The reality is that the fact that D in DEX doesn't sell itself, it needs to just be the best exchange, providing a superior way to trade.  The reality is that traders right now want to trade on Poloniex for exactly those reasons, regardless of how Poloniex has been implemented.

The thing that's frustrating to watch is that what DEX offers is extremely desirable to traders, safety.  If trade could be leveraged from one's own security, it would lead to a much deeper reflection of the tokens traded and a consistent, healthy  threat of major price action.

The problem with taking your money off the exchange and trading on the Dex, is the possibility of losing money due to the complicated nature of placing trades. This is especially relevant for shorting.

//Right now the odds of losing all your money on a centralized exchange due to hacking  is far lower than losing a big chunk on the Dex due to //complexity,   user errors, and bugs.  Also there is no chance of fund recovery on the Dex if a bug causes you to lose money.

The longer that polo and all the other CExs stay secured, the better their practices will get and the less useful our Dex becomes.

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

Please consider withdrawing your bts from external exchanges if you do not intend to sell them.. More than 30% of BTS are in the top two exchanges. This is very dangerous and if something goes wrong with any of these exchanges you can kiss goodbye your bts investment forever.

If you do not sell your bts, why not just held them in your wallet and be the king to your castle?

[Akado]

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

MT4, mentioned times.

Does a MT4 plugin require the same licence stuff as MT4 integration? I was under the impression a plugin would be more simple and cheaper. Am I wrong? When people say "integration" and "plugin" they're mentioning the same thing? I got confused.

[abit]

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

MT4, mentioned times.

[D4vegee]

I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/

+5. Couldn't agree more. It needs LOTS of work for average Joe.

[Buck Fankers]

I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/

[mf-tzo]

Some responses in this thread amaze me and I understand now after 2 years why bts has this market cap still..I am really curious how many bail ins, or hacks of centralized exchanges need to happen for people to realize the importance of our DEX..I hope that after a couple of more "accidents" in the future people will eventually learn..

I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

[yvv]

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

I've been shouting for a while... here's a post from a few weeks ago...

The biggest thing is shorting.  It's crazy confusing and sets up as a terrible risk reward scenario.  Maybe a script can be used to simplify what is actually going on, but I could talk to 10 traders about shorting on the DEX and all 10 would say its complex and nerve racking.

For a while now people have been trying to figure out why there is so little trading volume on the DEX.  I've traded forex and stocks for over 10 years and have written dozens of trading bots (Expert Advisors) in the mql language.  I've turned $2,500 into $50,000 in 6 months.  I've also turned $50,000 into $20,000 in 6 months as well. I think I have a pretty good idea of what traders need and expect from a platform.

1. Shorting in the DEX is cumbersome and confusing
I recently tried to short using the DEX.  I borrowed CNY and then sold that CNY for BTS.  I ended up getting margin called as BTS fell in price.  I'm ok with being wrong about a position, but I'm very confused with the mechanics of how this happened.  I also had no idea what my position was worth throughout the trade, and I'm not even entirely sure how much I lost.  Shorting needs to be streamlined and simplified.  The borrow/sell thing is too many steps and not knowing the positions value during the trade is borderline scary.

2.Is there a way to put a stop loss or take profit order?
Because right now I can't figure out how to do it.  This means there is no money management ability.  Without the ability to manage a trade, the DEX is unusable for serious traders.  There needs to be at a minim stop loss orders.  There really should be a way to put trailing stops in as well.

3.Indicators are shaky at best
Right now there are 4 indicators and 2 of them are moving averages.  The RSI doesn't appear to be working as the only reading I see on the more liquid markets are 100, 50, or 0.  It looks like an EKG witch tells me something isn't working correctly.  Not all traders use indicators, but many do.

These are just basic GUI things that are preventing traders from using the DEX.  It doesn't even include the inability to use leverage.  Just fixing the 3 things above will bring much more utility and liquidity to the dex.  I will guarantee it.  The people that originally designed the DEX were not traders.  They thought poloniex was a good interface to base their platform on.  Unfortunately, poloniex is not a good platform.  A professional trader would never use Poloniex.  Poloniex's platform is modeled off some cheap retail trading platform.

How do we fix this??
Right now we are consumed by petty fee debates and if we should keep calling ourselves DPOS.  These things are not that important right now.  It's not what will drive mainstream traders to the BTS platform.  What is needed is A PLUGIN FOR METATRADER 4.  While it isn't the most sophisticated trading platform, it's the most widely used and known.  It's also light years ahead of the current DEX.  What I propose is that instead of @dannotestein and blocktrades using a worker proposal to fix basic blockchain bugs, rather is work on creating a plugin for MT4.  They are already an exchange and have a good understanding of BTS.  I know it's not as easy as fixing "bad coding techniques", but getting this plugin for BTS would do more to improve the market cap and utility than anything else.

Well, some of this points are definitely valid. The problem is that DEX is different kind of trading than forex or stock exchange. But, opinion of forex and stock traders should never be ignored. Only symbiosis of trader experience and tech experience is the way to success. Right now bitshares has smartest IT experts, but lacks expertise from financial side. This is imo, of course.

[Methodise]

Counterparty risk reduction is an incentive towards keeping bitshares off exchange. NXT was disappeared in large quantities from an (bter?) exchange hack, despite its lotto.

[lil_jay890]

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

I've been shouting for a while... here's a post from a few weeks ago...

The biggest thing is shorting.  It's crazy confusing and sets up as a terrible risk reward scenario.  Maybe a script can be used to simplify what is actually going on, but I could talk to 10 traders about shorting on the DEX and all 10 would say its complex and nerve racking.

For a while now people have been trying to figure out why there is so little trading volume on the DEX.  I've traded forex and stocks for over 10 years and have written dozens of trading bots (Expert Advisors) in the mql language.  I've turned $2,500 into $50,000 in 6 months.  I've also turned $50,000 into $20,000 in 6 months as well. I think I have a pretty good idea of what traders need and expect from a platform.

1. Shorting in the DEX is cumbersome and confusing
I recently tried to short using the DEX.  I borrowed CNY and then sold that CNY for BTS.  I ended up getting margin called as BTS fell in price.  I'm ok with being wrong about a position, but I'm very confused with the mechanics of how this happened.  I also had no idea what my position was worth throughout the trade, and I'm not even entirely sure how much I lost.  Shorting needs to be streamlined and simplified.  The borrow/sell thing is too many steps and not knowing the positions value during the trade is borderline scary.

2.Is there a way to put a stop loss or take profit order?
Because right now I can't figure out how to do it.  This means there is no money management ability.  Without the ability to manage a trade, the DEX is unusable for serious traders.  There needs to be at a minim stop loss orders.  There really should be a way to put trailing stops in as well.

3.Indicators are shaky at best
Right now there are 4 indicators and 2 of them are moving averages.  The RSI doesn't appear to be working as the only reading I see on the more liquid markets are 100, 50, or 0.  It looks like an EKG witch tells me something isn't working correctly.  Not all traders use indicators, but many do.

These are just basic GUI things that are preventing traders from using the DEX.  It doesn't even include the inability to use leverage.  Just fixing the 3 things above will bring much more utility and liquidity to the dex.  I will guarantee it.  The people that originally designed the DEX were not traders.  They thought poloniex was a good interface to base their platform on.  Unfortunately, poloniex is not a good platform.  A professional trader would never use Poloniex.  Poloniex's platform is modeled off some cheap retail trading platform.

How do we fix this??
Right now we are consumed by petty fee debates and if we should keep calling ourselves DPOS.  These things are not that important right now.  It's not what will drive mainstream traders to the BTS platform.  What is needed is A PLUGIN FOR METATRADER 4.  While it isn't the most sophisticated trading platform, it's the most widely used and known.  It's also light years ahead of the current DEX.  What I propose is that instead of @dannotestein and blocktrades using a worker proposal to fix basic blockchain bugs, rather is work on creating a plugin for MT4.  They are already an exchange and have a good understanding of BTS.  I know it's not as easy as fixing "bad coding techniques", but getting this plugin for BTS would do more to improve the market cap and utility than anything else.

[yvv]

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

[well.attenuated]

 
This is like asking "why do people leave their money in Banks? There is a chance the bank could fold. Therefore everyone should cash out into cryto and or cash"
User error risks are currently more likely than the centralized risk proposed by the OP.

Also, most of the BTS in accounts on the exchanges are just waiting for the opportunity to unload it.  I have some EXP on Poloniex but no EXP wallet. I have no intention of transferring it out because I don't want it. I have a predetermined price I will trade it back for BTC and withdraw that.  For many traders it is not worth trying to setup a wallet for every currency you want to trade, download a blockchain, become comfortable with the interface etc.  Add to that a buggy complicated interface and it is understandable that many traders want to just keep their BTS on exchanges while they are in a position.

The problem with taking your money off the exchange and trading on the Dex, is the possibility of losing money due to the complicated nature of placing trades. This is especially relevant for shorting.

Right now the odds of losing all your money on a centralized exchange due to hacking  is far lower than losing a big chunk on the Dex due to complexity, user errors, and bugs.  Also there is no chance of fund recovery on the Dex if a bug causes you to lose money.

The longer that polo and all the other CExs stay secured, the better their practices will get and the less useful our Dex becomes.

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

[lil_jay890]

The problem with taking your money off the exchange and trading on the Dex, is the possibility of losing money due to the complicated nature of placing trades. This is especially relevant for shorting.

Right now the odds of losing all your money on a centralized exchange due to hacking  is far lower than losing a big chunk on the Dex due to complexity, user errors, and bugs.  Also there is no chance of fund recovery on the Dex if a bug causes you to lose money.

The longer that polo and all the other CExs stay secured, the better their practices will get and the less useful our Dex becomes.

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

[xh3]

A good amount should be from traders, which don't really care about bts so...

Traders are important to the health of an asset,  and are a very literal breed.  If BTS is to collect traders from the centralized exchanges, it must provide a very literal reason for why they should trade there.  I would say that this provides a great opportunity for someone to code a virtual centralized exchange.  Also it might end up being good if there's a major heist because this would add intangible value to BTS' abilities, and provide a great opportunity for BTS bulls to get  way longer.

[Empirical1.2]

Please consider withdrawing your bts from external exchanges if you do not intend to sell them.. More than 30% of BTS are in the top two exchanges. This is very dangerous and if something goes wrong with any of these exchanges you can kiss goodbye your bts investment forever.

If you do not sell your bts, why not just held them in your wallet and be the king to your castle?

If we offer yield during the bootstrapping phase, it will encourage many people to move their BTS off the centralized exchanges and onto the DEX and many good things will result.  If you think that is important, I hope you will get behind @Empirical1.2's idea.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21597.msg284481.html#msg284481

What would stop the centralised exchanges from distributing its earned yields to their bts users, if they choose to do so?

AFAIK, they currently don't do this with other forms of POS rewards as it's not part of their business model. Yield harvesting is more complicated too and some also argue it carries some risk & management/maintenance requirements if you want to maximise your gain, which might put them off and also might make it something they couldn't get away with engaging in if customers hadn't explicitly given them permission. At the very worst case, if they did do this they would create millions of BitUSD,  which at least has the benefit of making BTS the USD crypto market leader by size.

We could offer yield to non exchange accounts to attract people to the dex

If it ever became an issue perhaps that could be a possibility too.