Author Topic: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?  (Read 5319 times)

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Offline chamber

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Forgive me if this already available somewhere, but a search of the forum didn't turn up anything. Does anyone know if there is a BitAsset that's pegged to a market cap weighted basket of the top ten cryptocurrencies?   I think cryptocurrencies are going to explode in value, but god if I can predict which ones.  I'd like an easy way to buy / sell the market as a whole.  Does this exist already? 

ETF equivalents for other market baskets would also be helpful (S&P 500, metals, etc)

Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 09:04:58 pm »
Not in the Bitshares ecosystem AFAIK.

There used to be / maybe there still is something like this for NXT.

I'd gladly HODL this BitETF :D

Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 09:10:41 pm »
If such bitETF would existed on DEX, it would probably become #1 market cap coin :)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 10:08:42 pm by yvv »

Offline Akado

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 09:15:23 pm »
I think this has been discussed in the past and the issue was how to weight each coin if I'm not mistaken. But it's a good idea I like it, it deserves to be a MPA
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Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 09:23:34 pm »
I think it should be simple enough.. assuming there are other good alternative sources of data besides coinmarketcap.

It just needs to a) figure out what the top10 cryptos are, b) compute a price from that.

If there are good alternative sources of the top10 data, then [member=120]xeroc[/member] could probably bake something in an afternoon! :o

Offline CLains

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 09:26:20 pm »
I'd buy it.  :D

Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 09:39:10 pm »
I think ETFs and FOREX in general are two potential goldmines that we've been ignoring.

But their success (in my view) ties to what is being discussed in another thread right now, about having BLABLA.EUR vs EUR .. if you have all of the gateways IOUs trading against other gateways IOUs then it quickly approaches nightmare, especially for newcomers.. how much nicer it would be seeing markets like EUR:TRY or USD:CNY being actively used.

For this ETF, I think it makes a lot more sense, likewise, to trade it against USD, CNY, GBP, and so on, rather than gateways IOUs..


My fear is that we'd go through the hassle of implementing the logic in the price feed scripts, advertise this to the world, and then have hundreds of confused newcomers who want to make some good money wondering how exactly it improves the situation to have the gateway being a trusted party over what could very well possibly be years or decades...

The Smartcoin as far as I can see is undoubtedly the best instrument to trade this sort of stuff against.


tldr CRYPTO10:USD good, CRYPTO10:OPEN.USD bad

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 09:46:32 pm »
If it was possible this would be pretty good,  DACs in particular are having a really good start to 2016, not sure many people would want to short it though.

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Offline hcf27

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 09:54:59 pm »
I would deff be interested in a BitETF smartcoin..

I think the weight of each coin should be the same at the starting point, for example:

10% Bitcoin
10% Ethereum
10% Litecoin
.... ETC

Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 10:13:57 pm »
I think this has been discussed in the past and the issue was how to weight each coin if I'm not mistaken.

Just like S&P 500 ETF does. Take top 10 from coinmarketcap, weight their prices by market cap, sum them together. Simple. You can do even better: take all coins instead of just 10. Make mega crypto ETF index.


 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 10:17:31 pm by yvv »

Offline morpheus

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 10:20:05 pm »
There have been attempts at this already but mostly the centralized UIA version.  It would be nice to have a decentralized smartcoin-style version and the infrastructure may be in place to do it now.

My strategy already is to not throw any serious money at anything unless it is consistently in the top 10.  A smartcoin that tracks a basket of the top 10 cryptos would be great.  You could call it crypto10 or something similar, like the dow30 or s&p500. 

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 12:09:17 am »
We gave it a shot with a friend during these last months. It's a beta web site around two indexes.
"Bit20" is a weighted index of the top 20 crypto. The weight is done like a classical weighted index (like the cac40)
To be able to comoare it to fiat, we also created an index for fiat with the top 10 fiat, the FIAT10.
I'm no sure where I'm going with that project but the math and calibration of the indexes are pretty decents.

You can find all the graphs, math and ponderations on the beta website here : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php

Unfortunately, it's only available in french right now .. even like that, graphs are very cool to watch ;p

Anyone wanting to participate, translate, grow this project is very welcome.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 12:36:55 am by EstefanTT »
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Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 12:27:12 am »
We gave it a shot with a friend during these last months. It's a beta web site around two indexes.
"Bit20" is a weighted index of the top 20 crypto. The wieght is done like a classical index as the cac40.
To be able to related to fiat, we also created an index for fiat with the top 10 fiat, the FIAT10.
I'm no sure where I'm going with that but the math and calibration of the indexes are pretty decents.

You can find all the graphs, math and ponderations on the beta website here : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php

Unfortunately, it's only available in french right now .. even like that, graphs are very cool to watch ;p

Anyone wanting to participate, translate, grow this project is very welcome.

This is so damn cool! I want to keep both bit20 and fiat10 on blockchain.

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2016, 12:30:54 am »
We gave it a shot with a friend during these last months. It's a beta web site around two indexes.
"Bit20" is a weighted index of the top 20 crypto. The wieght is done like a classical index as the cac40.
To be able to related to fiat, we also created an index for fiat with the top 10 fiat, the FIAT10.
I'm no sure where I'm going with that but the math and calibration of the indexes are pretty decents.

You can find all the graphs, math and ponderations on the beta website here : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php

Unfortunately, it's only available in french right now .. even like that, graphs are very cool to watch ;p

Anyone wanting to participate, translate, grow this project is very welcome.

This is so damn cool! I want to keep both bit20 and fiat10 on blockchain.
Thanks.

I though about creating a market for both pair but it shouldn't be centralised. I'm probably out of my league to produce something like that in a decentralised way.
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
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Offline hcf27

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2016, 12:36:29 am »
We gave it a shot with a friend during these last months. It's a beta web site around two indexes.
"Bit20" is a weighted index of the top 20 crypto. The wieght is done like a classical index as the cac40.
To be able to related to fiat, we also created an index for fiat with the top 10 fiat, the FIAT10.
I'm no sure where I'm going with that but the math and calibration of the indexes are pretty decents.

You can find all the graphs, math and ponderations on the beta website here : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php

Unfortunately, it's only available in french right now .. even like that, graphs are very cool to watch ;p

Anyone wanting to participate, translate, grow this project is very welcome.

This is pretty cool, You can probably talk to [member=120]xeroc[/member] and he can help you build a smartcoin for Bit20 ... I know a lot of people would be interested in something like this so I am down if you need any help... I can translate from english to spanish but no french lol

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2016, 12:42:53 am »
We gave it a shot with a friend during these last months. It's a beta web site around two indexes.
"Bit20" is a weighted index of the top 20 crypto. The wieght is done like a classical index as the cac40.
To be able to related to fiat, we also created an index for fiat with the top 10 fiat, the FIAT10.
I'm no sure where I'm going with that but the math and calibration of the indexes are pretty decents.

You can find all the graphs, math and ponderations on the beta website here : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php

Unfortunately, it's only available in french right now .. even like that, graphs are very cool to watch ;p

Anyone wanting to participate, translate, grow this project is very welcome.

This is pretty cool, You can probably talk to [member=120]xeroc[/member] and he can help you build a smartcoin for Bit20 ... I know a lot of people would be interested in something like this so I am down if you need any help... I can translate from english to spanish but no french lol
The french texts needs an update, they were made in july. I was thinking to update them and make a first draft in english and look for someone to correct it.
A spanish version would be cool !

Create a smartcoin like that would be amazing I agree. It could even bring crypto investors in Bitshares !
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline JonnyB

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2016, 02:33:09 am »
METAFEES are in effect a basket of 4 cryptos BTC BTS ETH NXT
METAFEES trade in the free market but are not redeemable for the basket of coins. This could be considered the first bitETF.

They have a (NAV) net asset value which was quoted by [member=3967]Shentist[/member] at the last buyback.
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Offline fuzzy

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2016, 02:43:12 am »
Forgive me if this already available somewhere, but a search of the forum didn't turn up anything. Does anyone know if there is a BitAsset that's pegged to a market cap weighted basket of the top ten cryptocurrencies?   I think cryptocurrencies are going to explode in value, but god if I can predict which ones.  I'd like an easy way to buy / sell the market as a whole.  Does this exist already? 

ETF equivalents for other market baskets would also be helpful (S&P 500, metals, etc)

i have talked about orecisely this thing in mumble with bm probably over a year ago now. funny how these ideas spring up again. i take it as a testiment to the validity!
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Offline xeroc

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2016, 06:44:59 am »
We gave it a shot with a friend during these last months. It's a beta web site around two indexes.
"Bit20" is a weighted index of the top 20 crypto. The wieght is done like a classical index as the cac40.
To be able to related to fiat, we also created an index for fiat with the top 10 fiat, the FIAT10.
I'm no sure where I'm going with that but the math and calibration of the indexes are pretty decents.

You can find all the graphs, math and ponderations on the beta website here : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php

Unfortunately, it's only available in french right now .. even like that, graphs are very cool to watch ;p

Anyone wanting to participate, translate, grow this project is very welcome.

This is pretty cool, You can probably talk to [member=120]xeroc[/member] and he can help you build a smartcoin for Bit20 ... I know a lot of people would be interested in something like this so I am down if you need any help... I can translate from english to spanish but no french lol
The french texts needs an update, they were made in july. I was thinking to update them and make a first draft in english and look for someone to correct it.
A spanish version would be cool !

Create a smartcoin like that would be amazing I agree. It could even bring crypto investors in Bitshares !

That can surely be done .. the symbol can't carry numbers though ..

What coding language do you use for deriving the numbers?

If you feel confident about creating a smartcoin, you can drop me a mail at Fabian[member=73]bitshares[/member].org.

This would be a very basic feed script written in python:
https://github.com/BitSharesEurope/testnet-pythonscripts/blob/master/feed.random.py (before you use it, please test the actual numbers on the testnet so that you don't publish a wrong feed!)
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2016, 07:40:42 am »
Someone raised a very interesting pont on the thread.

Who would be mad enough to short this one? And if the answer is nobody, doesn't that essentially prevent any CRYPTOTEN from ever seeing the light of day?

I don't understand the shorting rules very well, maybe it's just the opposite, people kinda always expect it to go up, so they short it and buy it for themselves.. anyone has an idea?


Either way, this could be HUGE!

Offline hcf27

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2016, 11:52:19 am »
Someone raised a very interesting pont on the thread.

Who would be mad enough to short this one? And if the answer is nobody, doesn't that essentially prevent any CRYPTOTEN from ever seeing the light of day?

I don't understand the shorting rules very well, maybe it's just the opposite, people kinda always expect it to go up, so they short it and buy it for themselves.. anyone has an idea?


Either way, this could be HUGE!

Well considering 16% price drop on ethereum and 5% drop on bts it wouldnt have been such a bad thing to short a day like today!

Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2016, 12:00:42 pm »
Someone raised a very interesting pont on the thread.

Who would be mad enough to short this one? And if the answer is nobody, doesn't that essentially prevent any CRYPTOTEN from ever seeing the light of day?

I don't understand the shorting rules very well, maybe it's just the opposite, people kinda always expect it to go up, so they short it and buy it for themselves.. anyone has an idea?


Either way, this could be HUGE!

The price of CRYPTOTEN will go up and down against BTS, so shorting will make sense. Besides, you don't necessarily need to short it after you create it. You can exchange it for underlying coins.
 

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2016, 12:25:49 pm »
When creating this index and website with my friend, we first though about creating an IUA and make a market of it with a 0.1% cut on the trades so we can grow the project with these funds on communication, better website, ... the problem is, it would be centralised and anybody would trust us with large funds.
So we have to make a smartcoin out of it. Is there a way to benefit from the creation and liquidity of a smartcoin ?
The ecomical incentive is important because it would cost a lot of time to evolve this project. BTS didn't reach 1€ this month and still have to work to pay the rent and my free time is already absorbed by the bitsharesfcx.com website.

I'm not familiar with the smartcoin creation and ownership if there is such thing. Am I missing something ?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 01:34:50 pm by EstefanTT »
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Offline hcf27

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2016, 12:32:24 pm »
When creating this index and website with my friend, we first though about creating an IUA and make a market of it with a 0.1% cut on the trades so we can grow the project with these funds on communication, better website, ... the problem is, it would be centralised and anybody would trust us with large funds.
So we have to make a smartcoin out of it. Is there a way to benefit from the creation and liquidity of a smartcoin ?
The ecomical incentive is important because it would cost a lot of time to evolve this project. BTS didn't reach 1€ this month and still have to work to pay the rent and my free time is already absorbed by the bitsharesfcx.com website.

I'm not familiar with the smartcoin creation and ownership if there is such thing. Am I missing solething ?

I think the issue with a centralized smartcoin its not the funds since they are generated via shorting, but people need to trust the feed... I think bitcrab made a couple of smartcoins.

1% seems reasanable for your work

Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2016, 02:24:15 pm »
When creating this index and website with my friend, we first though about creating an IUA and make a market of it with a 0.1% cut on the trades so we can grow the project with these funds on communication, better website, ... the problem is, it would be centralised and anybody would trust us with large funds.
So we have to make a smartcoin out of it. Is there a way to benefit from the creation and liquidity of a smartcoin ?
The ecomical incentive is important because it would cost a lot of time to evolve this project. BTS didn't reach 1€ this month and still have to work to pay the rent and my free time is already absorbed by the bitsharesfcx.com website.

I'm not familiar with the smartcoin creation and ownership if there is such thing. Am I missing something ?

You UIA will be trusted if you present an evidence that it is 100% backed by underlying assets, which is easy to prove on blockchain. Sell you UIA at premium, buy back at discount, make profit.

If you go decentralized way, you put yourself into same boat with your competitors.


Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2016, 02:49:22 pm »
Personally I'd say going the Smartcoin way is the best option here. It's better if we dont' have to trust a 3rd party, especially over years .. otherwise it's no better than a brokerage account (well, less fees, but that's it) .. if the broker goes bust, that's it.

In fact, it's worse in this case, because the broker (UIA creator) would be small fish.

We need to take advantage of the Smartcoins.. getting rid of centralization and having to trust a third party was/is one of the big things which Bitshares could/can use to distinguish itself... IMO.

Offline hcf27

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2016, 03:16:14 pm »
Personally I'd say going the Smartcoin way is the best option here. It's better if we dont' have to trust a 3rd party, especially over years .. otherwise it's no better than a brokerage account (well, less fees, but that's it) .. if the broker goes bust, that's it.

In fact, it's worse in this case, because the broker (UIA creator) would be small fish.

We need to take advantage of the Smartcoins.. getting rid of centralization and having to trust a third party was/is one of the big things which Bitshares could/can use to distinguish itself... IMO.
+5%

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2016, 05:18:24 pm »
Personally I'd say going the Smartcoin way is the best option here. It's better if we dont' have to trust a 3rd party, especially over years .. otherwise it's no better than a brokerage account (well, less fees, but that's it) .. if the broker goes bust, that's it.

In fact, it's worse in this case, because the broker (UIA creator) would be small fish.

We need to take advantage of the Smartcoins.. getting rid of centralization and having to trust a third party was/is one of the big things which Bitshares could/can use to distinguish itself... IMO.

That's also what I think !

An UIA will never be a popular index because of the risk associated with one person in control of the funds.

In the case of a smartcoin, the index becomes decentralised, the witness provides the price feed based on a script and the token only can exist with shorters. It belongs to the Blockchain and nobody can profit from it except BitShares itself from the transactions and trades made with the smartcoin.

In that case, why would someone spend the time and efforts to create a smartcoin if there is no economical incventives ? Pure altruisme is not the strong suit of human beeing ...

Did I understand it well ?
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Offline Shentist

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2016, 05:36:14 pm »
METAFEES are in effect a basket of 4 cryptos BTC BTS ETH NXT
METAFEES trade in the free market but are not redeemable for the basket of coins. This could be considered the first bitETF.

They have a (NAV) net asset value which was quoted by [member=3967]Shentist[/member] at the last buyback.

that's true! I personal see METAFEES as a kind of index with added feature of earning some money via transfering value between the supported coins. the
risk of the UIA is the same as ever : we can run with the money or could get hacked or we have a major failure in our pricing.

i like the idea or a ETF as a smartcoin, and who would short it? the same people who are shorting bitBTC. all the believers they think BTS will outperforme
the basket.

Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2016, 06:05:56 pm »
In that case, why would someone spend the time and efforts to create a smartcoin if there is no economical incventives ? Pure altruisme is not the strong suit of human beeing ...

Did I understand it well ?

I've been around for some time and still don't really quite understand the mechanics of this and what's at stake.

Am I risking losing money if I borrow some BitCHF for instance?

Or if the closest sell for BitUSD is too far from settlement price, could I make a profit by borrowing some USD and selling it at a fair price?

It just seems a bit like wizardry, the rules are not so clear (or I failed to grasp them) .. maybe the incentives are not set up right.. I don't know.

It would be nice if someone has a nice article/blog post explaining this in a way that a trading noobie could grasp.



Other than that.. this really seems like a good idea, I'd buy 500€ worth of the stuff every month!

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2016, 06:10:34 pm »
In that case, why would someone spend the time and efforts to create a smartcoin if there is no economical incventives ? Pure altruisme is not the strong suit of human beeing ...

Did I understand it well ?

I've been around for some time and still don't really quite understand the mechanics of this and what's at stake.

Am I risking losing money if I borrow some BitCHF for instance?

Or if the closest sell for BitUSD is too far from settlement price, could I make a profit by borrowing some USD and selling it at a fair price?

It just seems a bit like wizardry, the rules are not so clear (or I failed to grasp them) .. maybe the incentives are not set up right.. I don't know.

It would be nice if someone has a nice article/blog post explaining this in a way that a trading noobie could grasp.



Other than that.. this really seems like a good idea, I'd buy 500€ worth of the stuff every month!
Lots of persons would put some money in it, even invest part of their bank account fiat money. The index can't hardly go down on the long run. It would be like a hell of a good investment oportunity.

If anyone can answer the questions in this thread, (s)he is very welcomebto participate.
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Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2016, 06:14:49 pm »
I say lets add this to the price feed scripts, then advertise it on /r/cryptocurrency and some major news sites (some of our people are well connected for this and know who to reach for).

This ETF is one way only: MOON :o

... however.

It makes most sense for the most active markets on this one to be :USD, :EUR, :CNY and probably :BTC, so it seems the liquidity problem would have to be eliminated for this to really make sense!

Offline xeroc

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2016, 06:20:15 pm »
When you create a smartcoin you can choose the collateral asset .. and by this you also choose a base market .. e.g. USD:BTS (BTS is collateral)
Any price in markets are actually relations between 2 assets. Gold price is denoted in USD or EUR (two assets). BTS price is denoted in BTC (two prices).

Now people shorting speculate on the USD/BTS price to go down .. e.g. BTS to worth more USD. .. or USD being worth less BTS. Then they buy back and make a profit.

This you can do with an index as well .. if the TOP10 index has BTS as collateral, then you speculate the BTS price against the price of all top10 coins .. e.g. the BTS asset to climb in the list of top10 assets.
If the smartcoin had bitUSD as collateral .. then you would speculate on the USD nomination of the top10 index to go up or down (pretty much like the number at the very top of coinmarketcap.com)

So there will CERTAINLY be people shorting it ... if they only knew about it!
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Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2016, 06:39:27 pm »
Add "Xerocs' guide to making a million with CRYPTOTEN" to the list of things we need!

Seriously though. I think this could be huge..

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2016, 07:14:53 pm »
now let's assume we had a liquid USD .. then you could create that index with USD as collateral .. and really let people speculate on that one number on CMC :)

Shoot me a PM if you want to make this real and need concrete technical assistance!
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Offline tonyk

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2016, 07:36:19 pm »

In that case, why would someone spend the time and efforts to create a smartcoin if there is no economical incventives ? Pure altruisme is not the strong suit of human beeing ...

Did I understand it well ?

You can for sure set and collect a trading fee of any smart coin you create. So there is an incentive. Take a look at this private smart coin - TCNY http://cryptofresh.com/a/TCNY. There is a field "Market fee" it is 0% in this case, but you can set it to anything say 0.2% and collect 0.2% on each trade for you smart coin.
Some money can be made by setting the core exchange rate for the coin, too
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2016, 07:51:00 pm »
now let's assume we had a liquid USD .. then you could create that index with USD as collateral .. and really let people speculate on that one number on CMC :)

Shoot me a PM if you want to make this real and need concrete technical assistance!

Come on! lets make this happen boys! it can sky rocket BTS for sure.. I will contribute with some marketing once the asset is out

Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2016, 08:21:54 pm »
 +5% +5% +5% +5%

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2016, 08:30:12 pm »
now let's assume we had a liquid USD .. then you could create that index with USD as collateral .. and really let people speculate on that one number on CMC :)

Shoot me a PM if you want to make this real and need concrete technical assistance!
Thanks ! I will !

I have to talk first with the friend who made this with me and see what he thinks about that but he will probably be thrill be the idea.

We will probably have to review our math and ponderations to be sure it's perfect before going any further.
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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2016, 11:37:44 pm »
I'd like to see speculation on:

AltCrypto10 (#2 - #11)
Crypto10 (#1 - #10)

I think you will have 2 different markets that have different opinions about adding in Bitcoin.

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2016, 01:18:49 am »
I'd like to see speculation on:

AltCrypto10 (#2 - #11)
Crypto10 (#1 - #10)

I think you will have 2 different markets that have different opinions about adding in Bitcoin.
The way the index is done limit the % (the weight) of the biggest MC. BTC doesn't weight more than 10% in the Bit20 ( index of the 20 top crypto.)
Also, the index doesn't include ripple, we felt we can't consider it like an crypto-currency because of the centralisation.

I think the distinction BTC / Altcoins is going to disapear slowly. We'll soon call all of them "cryptocurrencies". Last week, ETH was value at 1/6th of BTC MC, it didn't feel like an Altcoin to me. Neither will BTS when it will be 4x the MC of BTC ... ;p
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Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2016, 07:19:11 am »
I'm really excited about this one. I pledge to buy 500€ worth of the stuff every month, in BTC or EUR or CNY.

Lets make it happen!

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2016, 12:27:22 pm »
Just some ideas. I'd love to trade these..

coin10

Bitcoin
Litecoin
Dash
Doge
Monero

alt10

Bitcoin
Litecoin
Dash
Doge
Monero

chain10

Ethereum
Ripple
MaidSafecoin
BitShares
Factom

top10

all of above

altchain20

MaidSafecoin
BitShares
Factom
Peercoin
Counterparty
NEM
NXT

Ultimately whoever is creating these needs to decide what feels like it will be most in demand, what kind of weighting etc. and then iterate with market research to find out what's best.

As far as I can tell, demand is there for anything that's "good enough" in this direction ("perfect" can be enemy of "good enough"!) and I know for my own part I would trade all of these and all of those suggested here so far :)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2016, 04:29:42 pm »
I'll probably send a mail to Xerox to have an idea of the steps to migrate the Bit20 index in the BC as a smartcoin. Maybe the Fiat10 would also be a nice smartcoin. First I'll try to figure out the most of it by myself to avoid consuming the Xeroc time, I'm sure he have a lot of things going on.

When I will have a good idea of the way to do this, I'll create an offical thread on bts.talk for anyone who is willing to give us feedbacks and participate.

As I intent to to fix a % on trades (around 0.1% probably), there will be potential incomes coming from the creation, commercialisation and liquidity of this index and an incentive for anyone wanting to participe in exchanges for the shares of future revenues.
I was thinking about creating a UIA with limited supply that would represent 100% of the revenue generated by the 0.1% on the trades of the Bit20 index. That would allow us to reward anybody helping with this project with an actual % of all trades made on this Smartcoin untill the end of time. When liquidity and trades would kick off, we could use a buy back or dividends system.

I still have to think about it but the idea would be :

# Create the BIT20 smartcoin, maybe also the FIAT10 (with other name as we can't have numbers in asset names)
# Revamp the bit20 web site : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
       - Decides the content of the website : Bit20 graph and info only or more Crypto stuff (Troll box, news, mini bog, ... ?)
       - Global spirit and design
# Decide how many languages the website will offert : English only ? French, spanish, chinese, portuguese, ... ??



 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 04:33:44 pm by EstefanTT »
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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2016, 04:47:18 pm »



When I will have a good idea of the way to do this, I'll create an offical thread on bts.talk for anyone who is willing to give us feedbacks and participate.

As I intent to to fix a % on trades (around 0.1% probably), there will be potential incomes coming from the creation, commercialisation and liquidity of this index and an incentive for anyone wanting to participe in exchanges for the shares of future revenues.
I was thinking about creating a UIA with limited supply that would represent 100% of the revenue generated by the 0.1% on the trades of the Bit20 index. That would allow us to reward anybody helping with this project with an actual % of all trades made on this Smartcoin untill the end of time. When liquidity and trades would kick off, we could use a buy back or dividends system.


I like the idea, once the smartcoin is created I would be more than happy to buy some shares and also collaborate with the marketing.

I am very excited about the potential of this project.

I do think that Bts should be the collateral used tho, there is just not enough liquidity on the bitusd market to be held as collateral.



Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2016, 05:18:43 pm »
The ramifications quickly get complex.

On one hand, it would make more sense to trade BitFiat against this ETF in the markets.

On the other hand, there is no good liquidity in any of the Smartcoins right now... so whatever we do, this would be dead in the water.. what good is it if nobody can get hold of some USD to gamble?


One thing is for sure ... if this is traded against BTS / backed by BTS, there'll be instant liquidity ... and that may be all we need to make this one successful.

edit: Well, instant liquidity at least on the BTS side.. the CRYPTOTEN would still have to be shorted.

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2016, 05:25:31 pm »
The ramifications quickly get complex.

On one hand, it would make more sense to trade BitFiat against this ETF in the markets.

On the other hand, there is no good liquidity in any of the Smartcoins right now... so whatever we do, this would be dead in the water.. what good is it if nobody can get hold of some USD to gamble?


One thing is for sure ... if this is traded against BTS / backed by BTS, there'll be instant liquidity ... and that may be all we need to make this one successful.

edit: Well, instant liquidity at least on the BTS side.. the CRYPTOTEN would still have to be shorted.

If the asset is backed by BTS and its as successful as I think it will be then I would short the hell out of it because it would mean that the BTS price would sky rocket!

Offline karnal

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2016, 05:38:23 pm »
That's also my opinion  +5%

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2016, 06:10:37 pm »
Thanks everyone for the info!  Looks like I'm not the only one this would appeal to.  Looking forward to help bring it about.

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2016, 06:35:27 pm »
I would like to see it also, but perhaps not paired with BTS. It would be nice to have it trade against fiat.

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2016, 09:58:51 pm »
I would like to see it also, but perhaps not paired with BTS. It would be nice to have it trade against fiat.

Well, I think there will automatically be a market for it against bitfiats as well just by virtue of the smartcoin existing.

The thing is, what to use as collateral for it. Fiat might make sense in a way, but also, then we are requiring people from all over the world to own BitUSD for instance.. why USD and not something else?

So in that sense, the collateral being BTS is maybe not a bad idea.. even if the most active market ends up being USD:CRYPTOTEN.

But I honestly don't understand the implications very well, so it's sort of an unfounded opinion to be honest. Just looking to continue the discussion, and if someone out there can clarify this, even better.

Offline JonnyB

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2016, 11:00:53 pm »
When creating this index and website with my friend, we first though about creating an IUA and make a market of it with a 0.1% cut on the trades so we can grow the project with these funds on communication, better website, ... the problem is, it would be centralised and anybody would trust us with large funds.
So we have to make a smartcoin out of it. Is there a way to benefit from the creation and liquidity of a smartcoin ?
The ecomical incentive is important because it would cost a lot of time to evolve this project. BTS didn't reach 1€ this month and still have to work to pay the rent and my free time is already absorbed by the bitsharesfcx.com website.

I'm not familiar with the smartcoin creation and ownership if there is such thing. Am I missing something ?

You UIA will be trusted if you present an evidence that it is 100% backed by underlying assets, which is easy to prove on blockchain. Sell you UIA at premium, buy back at discount, make profit.

If you go decentralized way, you put yourself into same boat with your competitors.

You should create a fund page at cyber.fund which will monitor your public keys for all the blockchain assets held in the fund.  This way people can confirm you have the cryptocoins in real time and their realtime current market value. They could not stop you stealing them however.

I think [member=3967]Shentist[/member] [member=23912]monsterer[/member]  should do this with METAFEES also so that NAV value can be reported in real time.

here's my cyberfund page although I haven't confirmed I control any wallets.    https://cyber.fund/[member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member]
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 11:02:30 pm by JonnyBitcoin »
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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2016, 11:03:42 pm »
When creating this index and website with my friend, we first though about creating an IUA and make a market of it with a 0.1% cut on the trades so we can grow the project with these funds on communication, better website, ... the problem is, it would be centralised and anybody would trust us with large funds.
So we have to make a smartcoin out of it. Is there a way to benefit from the creation and liquidity of a smartcoin ?
The ecomical incentive is important because it would cost a lot of time to evolve this project. BTS didn't reach 1€ this month and still have to work to pay the rent and my free time is already absorbed by the bitsharesfcx.com website.

I'm not familiar with the smartcoin creation and ownership if there is such thing. Am I missing something ?

You UIA will be trusted if you present an evidence that it is 100% backed by underlying assets, which is easy to prove on blockchain. Sell you UIA at premium, buy back at discount, make profit.

If you go decentralized way, you put yourself into same boat with your competitors.

You should create a fund page at cyber.fund which will monitor your public keys for all the blockchain assets held in the fund.  This way people can confirm you have the cryptocoins in real time and their realtime current market value. They could not stop you stealing them however.

I think [member=3967]Shentist[/member] [member=23912]monsterer[/member]  should do this with METAFEES also so that NAV value can be reported in real time.

here's my cyberfund page although I haven't confirmed I control any wallets.    JonnyBitcoin[/member]]https://cyber.fund/[member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member]

I think the idea is to make a SmartCoin with a feed that tracks the prices of the top 20 cryptocurrencies, the coin will be backed by collateral but there is no need to prove he owns the coins because there will be no coins... just like BitUSD, BitGold, etc..
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 11:26:50 pm by hcf27 »

Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2016, 11:46:56 pm »

The thing is, what to use as collateral for it. Fiat might make sense in a way, but also, then we are requiring people from all over the world to own BitUSD for instance.. why USD and not something else?

So in that sense, the collateral being BTS is maybe not a bad idea.. even if the most active market ends up being USD:CRYPTOTEN.


Yes, BTS collateral is good for exactly this reason. Why we should give preference to any fiat? We don't want to make US or other jurisdiction centric asset.

We could choose bitGold or some other exotic asset for collateral, but not at present low liquidity.




Offline yvv

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2016, 11:53:47 pm »
I think the idea is to make a SmartCoin with a feed that tracks the prices of the top 20 cryptocurrencies, the coin will be backed by collateral but there is no need to prove he owns the coins because there will be no coins... just like BitUSD, BitGold, etc..

Both, bitAsset and UIA have pros and cons. UIA is hard pegged and easy to market, but the issuer needs to provide a proof that it is backed by undelying assets to receive trust. Sort of centralized way. BitAsset is decentralized and trustless, but more difficult to market.

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Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2016, 07:20:56 am »
When you create a smartcoin you can choose the collateral asset .. and by this you also choose a base market .. e.g. USD:BTS (BTS is collateral)
Any price in markets are actually relations between 2 assets. Gold price is denoted in USD or EUR (two assets). BTS price is denoted in BTC (two prices).

Now people shorting speculate on the USD/BTS price to go down .. e.g. BTS to worth more USD. .. or USD being worth less BTS. Then they buy back and make a profit.

This you can do with an index as well .. if the TOP10 index has BTS as collateral, then you speculate the BTS price against the price of all top10 coins .. e.g. the BTS asset to climb in the list of top10 assets.
If the smartcoin had bitUSD as collateral .. then you would speculate on the USD nomination of the top10 index to go up or down (pretty much like the number at the very top of coinmarketcap.com)

So there will CERTAINLY be people shorting it ... if they only knew about it!

So... Basically the collateral asset has to be something that many people believe it will be more valuable than the smartcoin it's backing. Otherwise there won't be enough incentive to borrow the smartcoin into existence.

If CRYPTO10 is backed with USD, it means that there has to be lots of people (or at least a few who are rich and willing to invest in this market) who think that the cryptoindex will lose value against dollar. Not very likely. So there is no incentive to create more CRYPTO10, because the creator has to be adding more collateral every now and then so that he won't get margin called or force settled.

If CRYPTO10 is backed with BTS, it means that there has to be people who believe that BTS price will rise faster than the index. This is certainly possible because we have lots of Bitshares believers in the forum and in the DEX, of course.

But if you believe that BTS is good collateral for CRYPTO10, why would you buy it? Wouldn't it be rational to invest only in BTS in this case?

When you are designing smartcoins, it's important to understand the essentials of the market that you are creating:
- What are the incentives for somebody to borrow smartcoins into existence? What kind of beliefs that person has to have for long term? For example, fiat-smartcoins that are backed with BTS have pretty good incentives because there are lot of people who believe that price of BTS will rise in the future, so they can make money by creating fiat-smartcoins and selling them.
- What are the incentives for buyers? For example, if you create a smartcoin for a very inflationary fiatcurrency, you don't necessarily have any markets. Nobody wants to buy it.

Offline EstefanTT

Re: ETF-like BitAsset that's pegged to the price of the top 10 coins?
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2016, 05:14:20 pm »
When you create a smartcoin you can choose the collateral asset .. and by this you also choose a base market .. e.g. USD:BTS (BTS is collateral)
Any price in markets are actually relations between 2 assets. Gold price is denoted in USD or EUR (two assets). BTS price is denoted in BTC (two prices).

Now people shorting speculate on the USD/BTS price to go down .. e.g. BTS to worth more USD. .. or USD being worth less BTS. Then they buy back and make a profit.

This you can do with an index as well .. if the TOP10 index has BTS as collateral, then you speculate the BTS price against the price of all top10 coins .. e.g. the BTS asset to climb in the list of top10 assets.
If the smartcoin had bitUSD as collateral .. then you would speculate on the USD nomination of the top10 index to go up or down (pretty much like the number at the very top of coinmarketcap.com)

So there will CERTAINLY be people shorting it ... if they only knew about it!

So... Basically the collateral asset has to be something that many people believe it will be more valuable than the smartcoin it's backing. Otherwise there won't be enough incentive to borrow the smartcoin into existence.

If CRYPTO10 is backed with USD, it means that there has to be lots of people (or at least a few who are rich and willing to invest in this market) who think that the cryptoindex will lose value against dollar. Not very likely. So there is no incentive to create more CRYPTO10, because the creator has to be adding more collateral every now and then so that he won't get margin called or force settled.

If CRYPTO10 is backed with BTS, it means that there has to be people who believe that BTS price will rise faster than the index. This is certainly possible because we have lots of Bitshares believers in the forum and in the DEX, of course.

But if you believe that BTS is good collateral for CRYPTO10, why would you buy it? Wouldn't it be rational to invest only in BTS in this case?

When you are designing smartcoins, it's important to understand the essentials of the market that you are creating:
- What are the incentives for somebody to borrow smartcoins into existence? What kind of beliefs that person has to have for long term? For example, fiat-smartcoins that are backed with BTS have pretty good incentives because there are lot of people who believe that price of BTS will rise in the future, so they can make money by creating fiat-smartcoins and selling them.
- What are the incentives for buyers? For example, if you create a smartcoin for a very inflationary fiatcurrency, you don't necessarily have any markets. Nobody wants to buy it.

The way I see it, the only way to create this market at the moment is backing the Bit20 with BTS.

If Bit20 is getting the attention of crypto investors who wants an easy investment (without crazy volatily to hold during the next years of crypto growth), there will be a big buyers book for the Bit20, probably well above the pricefeed.

If BTS is a good investment and you like playing with volatility, you will take advantage of the liquidity of the Bit20 book (buyers) to short it when BTS will have low price (about to rise)

There is also a correlation between the success of the smartcoin and the benefit you can generate from shorting it. If the demand of bit20 grows, the price grows. If shorters create new Bit20 to sell,  the index grows and liquidity also. The more liquidity and popularity, the more money comes into the BitShares ecosystem (200% bts collateral by Bit20) and the more the BTS price goes up. It would work like a retroalimentacion loop.

Maybe it's a simplistic point of view. Any feedback is very much appreciated.

To gather all the feedbacks in a proper place, I've just created a thread to discuss it :

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21999.0.html




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