Yunbi started voting against all workers except refund/burn workers

[CLains]

It's unfair of Yunbi to start voting without the consent the people who use their exchange. Did they poll them, how did they determine who to vote for? This smells like determined action from a few select individuals in cooperation with the exchange management. Unless it represents the users on the exchange, it should not have been done, at the minimum they should have given advance warning to the users who held their funds there.

Even so it's not some big conspiracy. Most likely these determined individuals are doing what they think is best for their shares. But who has the best thinking? Best thinking depends on what the goal is, and what background assumptions people have. Should we increase value short term or long term? What makes the marketcap rise? Is there sufficient development without any dilution to sustain confidence in the project?

What worries me about the anti-dilution group is that I see no development or projects coming from that side of the argument. Almost everything that makes BitShares what it is now is coming from CNX and a handful of workers and partners that build on BitShares - from what I have seen their voices are nearly unanimous for at least modest dilution to fund development.

The anti-dilution campaign seem to come from a minority of large stake-holders who place all their faith in a theory that limiting a tiny percent of dilution will somehow magically raise the marketcap, even while vesting is still in action and small actions in new features or marketing can have orders of magnitude larger consequences on marketcap even short term.

[Bhuz]

I read through his last 100 posts in the forum.. did you? Didn't think so.

This is the white washing I am talking about.. his own actions and words are clear as day.

Alt has shown no discernment whatsoever in his voting against workers... as he stated in his post. Both his actions and his words have integrity with the latest statement of 'fuck bitshares workers' he made on the blockchain.

Your analysis is more like lipstick on a pig.

It is what it is.

Not only I read his posts (since I read this forum), but I also understand his motivations.
You clearly fails in the latter

And beware: "understanding" not necessarily means "supporting"

[yvv]

If I park my car in a parking garage that takes my keys and parks it, I understand I no longer have control of my car... but I also understand my car is not going to be used so the garage could operate another business of delivering packages around town for example.

If you don't make special agreement with them, they can do whatever they want with your car, once they get your keys.

[yvv]

So, what is a problem? They can vote, and they vote. We agreed to vote with shares, and here it is, money democracy in practice. Accept it.

No thanks. You accept it. I'll continue to look for solutions, hopefully with other like-minded people.

I don't keep my funds at yunbi, this is my solution. If somebody does, this is their choice, which you can't change.

[Bhuz]

Where is the public statement put out by Yunbi that they are going to be handling BTS funds this way from now on?

Where is the public statement put out by Yunbi that they are NOT going to do whatever they want with the stake they actually own as a centralized exchange?

Given their current position and volume with Ethereum though, they could care less what we or their holders think. If it serves their Ethereum trade business, then the consequences are minimal in the short sighted outlook of things. Perhaps it is in preparation of a chinese fork of bitshares if you really want to get conspiracy theory on it all.

I don't understand this point about eth.

Plus, negative votes are out, so if we want to be precise, they are not voting against other workers. They are supporting the refund worker, meaning that worker that would prevent abuse from others potentially bad-acting-workers.

Instead of focusing against yunbi and attacking people, we all should encourage people to vote with their stake, trade on the DEX and so on...

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

setup proxy to baozi if you are anti-dilution

this account will against all dilution workers without reason,
so please remove this proxy if you feel it's time to dilution to support those workers.
and don't try to persuade this account change the votes,
you should persuade those persons who set this account as proxy.

Bolded WITHOUT REASON.

You are welcome to look through all his forum posts prior to this all the way to the beginning of the year... not once was the idea of the market cap brought up by alt as his reasoning.

Alt has said fuck bitshares worker.. vote against without reason... don't try to whitewash the reality of his actions or postioning with what we would hope to be nice or reasonable intentions.. it's not.. it's without reason as he himself as stated.. to 'fuck bitshares worker'.

The anti-dilution movement is fueled by this 'without reason' thinking.... we can try and apply all the weak reasoning ideas we can come up with.. but at the end of the day it all amounts to nothing but wishful thinking in the hopes that those perpetrating it are doing it out of some semblance of rational/reasonable/good intentions which is directly contradictory to their own words and actions.

IMO, that "without reason" is clearly intended versus the workers, not for his motivation!

IMO, he is not saying that he votes without reason against all workers, BUT that he votes against those workers that (according to his motivations) have no "reason to be there"/"are not needed"

Plus, directly or indirectly, Alt has stated his motivation more than once. If you and other do not understand his points, is only your fault since you don't really want to carefull read and try to understand others people's positions.

I read through his last 100 posts in the forum.. did you? Didn't think so.

This is the white washing I am talking about.. his own actions and words are clear as day.

Alt has shown no discernment whatsoever in his voting against workers... as he stated in his post. Both his actions and his words have integrity with the latest statement of 'fuck bitshares workers' he made on the blockchain.

Your analysis is more like lipstick on a pig.

It is what it is.

[svk]

While we may not think it's a good idea to have exchanges vote, you could also argue that as long as the exchange accounts are public and we know who they're voting for, anyone keeping their funds in that exchange implicitly agrees to their votes. If they do not agree they should move their funds elsewhere.

I also fail to see how you can use Fox and Azure as an argument for worker dilution, on the contrary it's a great example of how people who are not workers can make important contributions and add value to the network. As far as I know the only direct compensation he received was from people (like myself) who made donations following the Azure announcement.

Imagine if every country where those that didn't go to vote were implicitly agreeing to their voting going towards something else was the norm. Is this the standard we should bring to Bitshares?

It's an exchange.. it's a business. Where is their terms and conditions that states they are going to sieze control of BTS holders voting power for their own use when they trade on their platform? Isn't there a statement somewhere in the trading platform that informs the end user that this is what will happen to their BTS voting power beyond the exchange? If not, I would call this surreptitious, unethical, and without any transparency on their part in the very system they have control over, their exchange. The fact that they hide behind some random named proxy name and not with something that says 'yunbi-exchange' suggests and attempt to hide their actions in my estimation, rather than encouraging transparency.

Fox is an example of development leading to greater market cap in the face of the arguement being we need to wait for magical pixie dust to somehow raise the market cap before we should spend any money.

If the argument is that we shouldn't have more development until market cap goes up, the reality seems to be that the development IS what is causing the market cap to increase. Therefore if we support solid development steps using what we have available to us, ie. worker proposals, then we will get to that higher market cap that supposedly is what is being waited for before support goes to them.

Your understanding of @alt  reasoning for stopping all workers because of the market cap doesn't support what alt himself has said. Look at his 2nd last post before he stopped coming to the forum back in February 4th:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21317.msg277003.html#msg277003

setup proxy to baozi if you are anti-dilution

this account will against all dilution workers without reason,
so please remove this proxy if you feel it's time to dilution to support those workers.
and don't try to persuade this account change the votes,
you should persuade those persons who set this account as proxy.

Bolded WITHOUT REASON.

You are welcome to look through all his forum posts prior to this all the way to the beginning of the year... not once was the idea of the market cap brought up by alt as his reasoning.

Alt has said fuck bitshares worker.. vote against without reason... don't try to whitewash the reality of his actions or postioning with what we would hope to be nice or reasonable intentions.. it's not.. it's without reason as he himself as stated.. to 'fuck bitshares worker'.

The anti-dilution movement is fueled by this 'without reason' thinking.... we can try and apply all the weak reasoning ideas we can come up with.. but at the end of the day it all amounts to nothing but wishful thinking in the hopes that those perpetrating it are doing it out of some semblance of rational/reasonable/good intentions which is directly contradictory to their own words and actions.

To put the FINAL nail in the coffin on this whole argument.

Bottom line... Yunbi is backed by Ethereum now by a VAST majority:

http://coinmarketcap.com/exchanges/yunbi/

Nearly 60% of their entire exchange volume is Ethereum in the last 24hrs.. its been that way for a while

So if you are wondering why they are voting the way they are, follow the money.

Wow, did you just suggest they're voting like this because of some far-fetched conspiracy involving Ethereum? A far more plausible answer would be that they're sick of Bitshares hard-forks and emergency hotfixes every couple of weeks and would like things to stabilize a little.

I don't think you're interpreting alt's post the right way, but as his English isn't the best it's certainly up for interpretation. In my opinion he's just saying he'll not vote for dilution workers no matter what at this point in time. Claiming that everyone anti-dilution are fueled by mindless stupidity is just ignorant, but you don't seem to want to listen to any arguments to the contrary. Everyone seems to want to frame this in terms of war terminology, "it's an attack on Bitshares" etc, perhaps that's just a product of our times, but doing so gets us nowhere.

You're putting words in alt's mouth saying he doesn't want more development for years to come and that he wants Bitshares to die, but nothing supports that theory. He simply has a different perspective on what is good for Bitshares in its current state, and since there's no direct correlation between development and market cap who knows, he might just be right. Like I said Fox's efforts had nothing to do with BTS development or worker proposals so it in no way supports your argument, in fact it supports alt's position.

[Bhuz]

setup proxy to baozi if you are anti-dilution

this account will against all dilution workers without reason,
so please remove this proxy if you feel it's time to dilution to support those workers.
and don't try to persuade this account change the votes,
you should persuade those persons who set this account as proxy.

Bolded WITHOUT REASON.

You are welcome to look through all his forum posts prior to this all the way to the beginning of the year... not once was the idea of the market cap brought up by alt as his reasoning.

Alt has said fuck bitshares worker.. vote against without reason... don't try to whitewash the reality of his actions or postioning with what we would hope to be nice or reasonable intentions.. it's not.. it's without reason as he himself as stated.. to 'fuck bitshares worker'.

The anti-dilution movement is fueled by this 'without reason' thinking.... we can try and apply all the weak reasoning ideas we can come up with.. but at the end of the day it all amounts to nothing but wishful thinking in the hopes that those perpetrating it are doing it out of some semblance of rational/reasonable/good intentions which is directly contradictory to their own words and actions.

IMO, that "without reason" is clearly intended versus the workers, not for his motivation!

IMO, he is not saying that he votes without reason against all workers, BUT that he votes against those workers that (according to his motivations) have no "reason to be there"/"are not needed"

Plus, directly or indirectly, Alt has stated his motivation more than once. If you and other do not understand his points, is only your fault since you don't really want to carefull read and try to understand others people's positions.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

While we may not think it's a good idea to have exchanges vote, you could also argue that as long as the exchange accounts are public and we know who they're voting for, anyone keeping their funds in that exchange implicitly agrees to their votes. If they do not agree they should move their funds elsewhere.

You can't really expect Yunbi's users who hold BTS to know exactly what is going on.  For all they know, they are just trading a cryptocurrency.  So unless Yunbi is informing their users about this very controversial action, then they are acting in an extremely unethical manner and should pay a serious price.

Users should know very well that as soon as they move their BTS to an external exchange, they do not really own their BTS anymore and do not have any voting power or control on what their stake is used for.

But what they didn't know is that the exchange they move it too would use that voting power to manipulate the value of their BTS... good or bad.

If I park my car in a parking garage that takes my keys and parks it, I understand I no longer have control of my car... but I also understand my car is not going to be used so the garage could operate another business of delivering packages around town for example.

Where is the public statement put out by Yunbi that they are going to be handling BTS funds this way from now on?

If they didn't put one out, then this was done with a clear understanding that this would be considered surreptitious.

Given their current position and volume with Ethereum though, they could care less what we or their holders think. If it serves their Ethereum trade business, then the consequences are minimal in the short sighted outlook of things. Perhaps it is in preparation of a chinese fork of bitshares if you really want to get conspiracy theory on it all.

[Bhuz]

While we may not think it's a good idea to have exchanges vote, you could also argue that as long as the exchange accounts are public and we know who they're voting for, anyone keeping their funds in that exchange implicitly agrees to their votes. If they do not agree they should move their funds elsewhere.

You can't really expect Yunbi's users who hold BTS to know exactly what is going on.  For all they know, they are just trading a cryptocurrency.  So unless Yunbi is informing their users about this very controversial action, then they are acting in an extremely unethical manner and should pay a serious price.

Users should know very well that as soon as they move their BTS to an external exchange, they do not really own their BTS anymore and do not have any voting power or control on what their stake is used for.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

While we may not think it's a good idea to have exchanges vote, you could also argue that as long as the exchange accounts are public and we know who they're voting for, anyone keeping their funds in that exchange implicitly agrees to their votes. If they do not agree they should move their funds elsewhere.

I also fail to see how you can use Fox and Azure as an argument for worker dilution, on the contrary it's a great example of how people who are not workers can make important contributions and add value to the network. As far as I know the only direct compensation he received was from people (like myself) who made donations following the Azure announcement.

Imagine if every country where those that didn't go to vote were implicitly agreeing to their voting going towards something else was the norm. Is this the standard we should bring to Bitshares?

It's an exchange.. it's a business. Where is their terms and conditions that states they are going to sieze control of BTS holders voting power for their own use when they trade on their platform? Isn't there a statement somewhere in the trading platform that informs the end user that this is what will happen to their BTS voting power beyond the exchange? If not, I would call this surreptitious, unethical, and without any transparency on their part in the very system they have control over, their exchange. The fact that they hide behind some random named proxy name and not with something that says 'yunbi-exchange' suggests and attempt to hide their actions in my estimation, rather than encouraging transparency.

Fox is an example of development leading to greater market cap in the face of the arguement being we need to wait for magical pixie dust to somehow raise the market cap before we should spend any money.

If the argument is that we shouldn't have more development until market cap goes up, the reality seems to be that the development IS what is causing the market cap to increase. Therefore if we support solid development steps using what we have available to us, ie. worker proposals, then we will get to that higher market cap that supposedly is what is being waited for before support goes to them.

Your understanding of @alt  reasoning for stopping all workers because of the market cap doesn't support what alt himself has said. Look at his 2nd last post before he stopped coming to the forum back in February 4th:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21317.msg277003.html#msg277003

setup proxy to baozi if you are anti-dilution

this account will against all dilution workers without reason,
so please remove this proxy if you feel it's time to dilution to support those workers.
and don't try to persuade this account change the votes,
you should persuade those persons who set this account as proxy.

Bolded WITHOUT REASON.

You are welcome to look through all his forum posts prior to this all the way to the beginning of the year... not once was the idea of the market cap brought up by alt as his reasoning.

Alt has said fuck bitshares worker.. vote against without reason... don't try to whitewash the reality of his actions or postioning with what we would hope to be nice or reasonable intentions.. it's not.. it's without reason as he himself as stated.. to 'fuck bitshares worker'.

The anti-dilution movement is fueled by this 'without reason' thinking.... we can try and apply all the weak reasoning ideas we can come up with.. but at the end of the day it all amounts to nothing but wishful thinking in the hopes that those perpetrating it are doing it out of some semblance of rational/reasonable/good intentions which is directly contradictory to their own words and actions.

To put the FINAL nail in the coffin on this whole argument.

Bottom line... Yunbi is backed by Ethereum now by a VAST majority:

http://coinmarketcap.com/exchanges/yunbi/

Nearly 60% of their entire exchange volume is Ethereum in the last 24hrs.. its been that way for a while

So if you are wondering why they are voting the way they are, follow the money.

[Ben Mason]

So, what is a problem? They can vote, and they vote. We agreed to vote with shares, and here it is, money democracy in practice. Accept it.

No thanks. You accept it. I'll continue to look for solutions, hopefully with other like-minded people. I value enormously the efforts of those who have built and continue to build this platform. I would see them fairly compensated for their efforts because I'm not looking for short-term returns. The more BitShares available to more people because of the dilution/worker paradigm the better for the future.

[fuzzy]

great points ben mason.

[Ben Mason]

While we may not think it's a good idea to have exchanges vote, you could also argue that as long as the exchange accounts are public and we know who they're voting for, anyone keeping their funds in that exchange implicitly agrees to their votes. If they do not agree they should move their funds elsewhere.

You can't really expect Yunbi's users who hold BTS to know exactly what is going on.  For all they know, they are just trading a cryptocurrency.  So unless Yunbi is informing their users about this very controversial action, then they are acting in an extremely unethical manner and should pay a serious price.

Indeed. There have been several sincere attempts to engage with those decrying all dilution but no serious argument or proposals have been forthcoming. This is an answer.  There is no rational argument against paying for added value via workers with dilution.  There are alternatives but none that work so easily to compensate core development etc. The actions of Yunbi and their supporters are self-destructive and, given the lack of any sensible engagement, likely driven by short-term price related greed or a desire to see BitShares fail in favour in the hope that an alternative will succeed. It is also possible that Yunbi sees the demise of their business in the BitShares decentralised exchange and are unwilling to adapt. How are their reserves?

[yvv]

So, what is a problem? They can vote, and they vote. We agreed to vote with shares, and here it is, money democracy in practice. Accept it.