Author Topic: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners  (Read 56080 times)

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Offline arhag

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2016, 07:56:50 pm »
Interesting...

Some additional (long) thoughts on the project:

The SBD (which seems to be a USD pegged asset with a possible interest rate bonus on top) is interesting...

Now the question is will bytemaster's strategy work, or will it cause the Bitcoin community to treat this DAC like a pariah and stubbornly refuse to use it while yelling out words like "instamine." I can't wait to find out.

Is this already mostly coded?

Everything I described in my post about STEEM was from my review of the existing code in GitHub. So, yes.

If so can it be forked onto BTS or a separate DAC with an allocation strategy that greatly favours BTS holders?

The BTS SuperDAC was created with the intention of forking competitors where possible/valuable and this seems like such a scenario given it's based on BTS compatible code?

I was going to say yes, but apparently as bytemaster mentioned previously in the thread, STEEM is released under a non-free license. Regardless of licensing issues, let me procede with why it may not make sense to bring SBD with interest into BitShares, which I believe is what you are mostly concerned about.

The problem with the SBD asset is that it forces all STEEM holders to back it, which means a risk of significant STEEM inflation to cover the price stability of SBD. We would not want to force all BTS holders to back an SBD equivalent on BitShares. Furthermore, users cannot create as much SBD as they wish on STEEM (which I think is good because that limits the liability of STEEM holders). That works fine for its intended purpose as rewards for content creator and curators, but I would say for something like BitUSD, our existing mechanism of borrowing with collateral makes more sense.

Regarding interest on market-pegged assets generally, let me just add a few comments on my personal/philosophical views about it. If I remember correctly I believe you are a proponent of paying yield on BitUSD. I don't agree with that unless it was done in a very different way than what was done previously due to yield harvesting. First, I disagree with the idea of BTS workers paying for the yield. This means I also disagree with the SBD interest mechanism being used in BitShares since ultimately it means the core asset holders (STEEM in the case of the Steem DAC, BTS in the case of BitShares) are paying for it through dilution. I think any smartcoin yield we may choose to have should come from the smartcoin borrowers. Second, due to yield harvesting, it only makes sense to pay yield to smartcoin holders if the instantaneous dynamic interest rate is always less than the current smallest interest rate paid by smartcoin borrowers. The way yield payouts would need to be calculated would also need to be more sophisticated than what was done previously with BitAsset yields. I could go into more depth on the technical details of how such a smartcoin yield system could work, but I think I won't bother doing that here and now. The short version of it is that the smartcoin manager would provide a dynamic feed of smartcoin holder interest rate, smartcoin borrower interest rate, and a smartcoin borrower max interest rate; and borrowers would have to pay a dynamic interest rate (with a ceiling set to the maximum interest rate from the feed at the time of borrowing which they implicitly agreed to by going through with the borrowing) and smartcoin holders would get paid a dynamic interest rate set to the smaller of the feed's smartcoin holder interest rate and the lowest interest rate paid by the smartcoin borrowers at the time.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2016, 08:03:37 pm »
Who are these investors let in on the ground floor?  Were they Brownie holders?  I'm a brownie holder and didn't here anything about this opportunity.

Offline bytemaster

Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2016, 08:08:28 pm »
Who are these investors let in on the ground floor?  Were they Brownie holders?  I'm a brownie holder and didn't here anything about this opportunity.

Companies in the US are not allowed publicly solicity investments. Startups are forced to raise capital from private sources.

I haven't forgotten about Brownie Holders.   
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2016, 08:13:43 pm »

SBD is an entirely different beast than BitAssets.  There is no shorting, no margin calls, and users cannot create it.

3. Interest on SBD is paid by creating new SBD from thin air and might never result in creation of STEEM

There are other reasons why Steem could not be built on BitShares:

1. It would need to be a separate asset due to its inflation scheme
2. bitshares is unable or unwilling to fund the development of something so speculative
3. bitshares is better served being an exchange and integrating with STEEM via a side chain

....

Thanks, I know you mentioned it wasn't really possible on BTS previously and I appreciate the detailed explanation.

While SBD is vastly different, it is still potentially a BitUSD competitor. There are no/low TX fees on BTS so I think we would derive little benefit from being a sidechain but the USD that bootstraps first or becomes really popular will make the backing asset very valuable.


Interesting...

Some additional (long) thoughts on the project:

The SBD (which seems to be a USD pegged asset with a possible interest rate bonus on top) is interesting...

Now the question is will bytemaster's strategy work, or will it cause the Bitcoin community to treat this DAC like a pariah and stubbornly refuse to use it while yelling out words like "instamine." I can't wait to find out.

Is this already mostly coded?

Everything I described in my post about STEEM was from my review of the existing code in GitHub. So, yes.

If so can it be forked onto BTS or a separate DAC with an allocation strategy that greatly favours BTS holders?

The BTS SuperDAC was created with the intention of forking competitors where possible/valuable and this seems like such a scenario given it's based on BTS compatible code?

I was going to say yes, but apparently as bytemaster mentioned previously in the thread, STEEM is released under a non-free license. Regardless of licensing issues, let me procede with why it may not make sense to bring SBD with interest into BitShares, which I believe is what you are mostly concerned about.

The problem with the SBD asset is that it forces all STEEM holders to back it, which means a risk of significant STEEM inflation to cover the price stability of SBD. We would not want to force all BTS holders to back an SBD equivalent on BitShares. Furthermore, users cannot create as much SBD as they wish on STEEM (which I think is good because that limits the liability of STEEM holders). That works fine for its intended purpose as rewards for content creator and curators, but I would say for something like BitUSD, our existing mechanism of borrowing with collateral makes more sense.

Thanks for the reply.

Ignoring the licensing issue for the time being. Could we potentially create something resembling a STEEM2 asset on BTS that is sharedropped 80% onto BTS shareholders (&/or pay royalties to BTS) with a corresponding SBD? It would have all the properties of STEEM & would be backing SBD2 on BTS but it would have been mostly sharedropped onto BTS shareholders.

My only thinking is shareholders will be unhappy about a competing USD created by CNX even though BM has justified his position and I also think STEEM's launch and initial distribution will be unpopular so combined with BTS's size, network effect, community & existing infrastructure  we may be able to outcompete it & existing BTS sharheholders will gain that value.
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Offline liondani

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2016, 08:14:57 pm »
Who are these investors let in on the ground floor?  Were they Brownie holders?  I'm a brownie holder and didn't here anything about this opportunity.

 +5% +5% +5%

YES what about brownies holders? I thought it is a BM asset... When bm wins brownies should rise! not?

Offline bytemaster

Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #80 on: April 05, 2016, 09:19:47 pm »
Who are these investors let in on the ground floor?  Were they Brownie holders?  I'm a brownie holder and didn't here anything about this opportunity.

 +5% +5% +5%

YES what about brownies holders? I thought it is a BM asset... When bm wins brownies should rise! not?

Perhaps I haven't won yet.  I intend to buy back brownies with some of my STEEM once all the infrastructure is in place to do it.  I need to know how much STEEM I personally end up with.   
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Offline hrossik

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2016, 07:38:25 am »
Do you guys convert all steem to vested? The conversion starts to be quite ineffective :(
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Offline bytemaster

Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2016, 07:10:42 pm »
Do you guys convert all steem to vested? The conversion starts to be quite ineffective :(

More effective than not converting. You may be getting less VESTS but that is just another way of saying that the mining reward as a percent of total STEEM is rapidly falling.  This is no different than any other crypto coin while the supply rapidly grows in percentage terms.
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Offline liondani

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2016, 07:37:27 pm »
Do you guys convert all steem to vested? The conversion starts to be quite ineffective :(

More effective than not converting. You may be getting less VESTS but that is just another way of saying that the mining reward as a percent of total STEEM is rapidly falling.  This is no different than any other crypto coin while the supply rapidly grows in percentage terms.

Except we speculate that STEEM will be pumped very high the first days on the exchanges (after about 3 weeks?) due to minimal supply of STEEMS. Only if you don't intend to keep them but only to dump them with a nice profit ...?
Dilution will be minimal compared to the huge demand....No?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 07:40:35 pm by liondani »

Offline liondani

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2016, 07:46:08 pm »
Perhaps I haven't won yet.  I intend to buy back brownies with some of my STEEM once all the infrastructure is in place to do it.  I need to know how much STEEM I personally end up with.



That means you have/will not vest all of your STEEMS to "sharedrop" on your brownies holders? !!!!  (selling "pumped" STEEMS to buy-back brownies)
That would definitely refresh a big part of our community !
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 07:51:53 pm by liondani »

Offline Tuck Fheman

Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2016, 12:16:11 pm »
to "sharedrop" on your brownies holders? !!!

If anyone plans on sharedropping to any token in the future, I sure hope they give at least a week's notice so people can pull their tokens off the bot wallet.
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Offline xeroc

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2016, 01:11:14 pm »
Only 0.47% of STEEM is liquid in individual accounts, this is going to make the pump on CMC legend... wait-for-it... dary!
I'd like to buy STEEM .. Anyone willing to sell some OTC?
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Offline JA

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2016, 01:28:45 pm »
Only 0.47% of STEEM is liquid in individual accounts, this is going to make the pump on CMC legend... wait-for-it... dary!
I'd like to buy STEEM .. Anyone willing to sell some OTC?
you can run a 12 core jiffybox for 24 hours for 3,60 € and u maybe get like ~40 steem
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 01:51:51 pm by jabbajabbaつ◕_◕つ »

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2016, 03:29:30 pm »
Only 0.47% of STEEM is liquid in individual accounts, this is going to make the pump on CMC legend... wait-for-it... dary!


I hope the price feeds to CMC will be running and STEEM will be exclusive to BitShares DEX  ;)

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: [ANN] [STEEM] Introducing Steem, Looking for Witnesses / Miners
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2016, 06:11:27 pm »
Only 0.47% of STEEM is liquid in individual accounts, this is going to make the pump on CMC legend... wait-for-it... dary!


I hope the price feeds to CMC will be running and STEEM will be exclusive to BitShares DEX  ;)

That's an impressively small amount, possibly too small. CMC has been pretty lenient with vesting balances in the past, (XRP founder shares & BTS merger shares for example) but with such a high amount vesting, it's quite possible CMC/others will only count the liquid, currently tradeable 0.47% towards the valuation.
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