Author Topic: Should BTS end merger vesting BTS early?  (Read 12096 times)

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Offline mint chocolate chip

Sorry for the simple question, but if nothing is done, when does vesting naturally end? What named accounts are receiving vesting funds, and in what amounts?

I don't think it should end early. To me, that seems like breaking an agreement.

The merger naturally ends on 5th Nov 2016 I think.

So not too long but it is a large amount, circa 50 BTC per week being released at current rates.

The merger gave 500 million BTS to holders of AGS, PTS, VOTE and DNS vested over two years. I think this was the final allocation...



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=844038.0

Other stakeholders 30 million BTS = Follow My Vote


Offline Empirical1.2

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Sorry for the simple question, but if nothing is done, when does vesting naturally end? What named accounts are receiving vesting funds, and in what amounts?

I don't think it should end early. To me, that seems like breaking an agreement.

The merger naturally ends on 5th Nov 2016 I think.

So not too long but it is a large amount, circa 50 BTC per week being released at current rates.

The merger gave 500 million BTS to holders of AGS, PTS, VOTE and DNS vested over two years. I think this was the final allocation...



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=844038.0
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline Chronos

Sorry for the simple question, but if nothing is done, when does vesting naturally end? What named accounts are receiving vesting funds, and in what amounts?

I don't think it should end early. To me, that seems like breaking an agreement.

Offline tbone

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I have to give some credit to @Empirical1.2 for thinking about the greater good and putting this idea up for debate despite having a lot of vesting shares himself.  And same to @gamey and anyone else who has vesting shares and has at least tried to look at this idea objectively.  At the same time, I don't think cancelling vesting shares would be perceived very well, regardless of the fact that it would be a decision of the shareholders, not one person or even a committee. 

Although perhaps the idea someone had to extend the vesting period is something to seriously consider.  It could have multiple benefits.  Obviously slowing dilution would be positive.  A side effect of that could be that the anti-dilution crowd might become more agreeable at least to some of the obviously beneficial worker proposals.

Also, assuming that @bytemaster owns a lot of vesting shares, wouldn't passage of a proposal like this prove that he truly doesn't have enough stake to unilaterally control BItshares as some here have charged? 


Offline liondani

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I voted NO... but from the other side we could....



...could it be Dan's pennis?  ???


PS Well I could... steem it!  :D

Offline Thom

Surprised nobody commented about the value these vested funds represent as I did. What good does delaying the vesting? The major point of vesting is to retain talent, and that aspect is mostly gone as empirical said. Same with deleting them. Sure that counters inflation, but how significant is that in the bigger picture? That primarily makes sense to the anti-dilution crowd, who offer zero input on how to pay for sustaining this ecosystem let alone improving it. They seem to loose sight of the fact their holding will become worthless if the ecosystem dies or cannot be maintained. Maybe the illusion of protecting their holdings is blinding them to the slow death that zero tolerance dilution will bring.

You could make the vesting period 5x longer and really slow the downward pressure.  You could also just stop the whole process for X years. 

What good would this do?  It would slow/stop the dilution that is apparently bleeding BTS.  My understand that is the objective of the suggestion in this thread. This would go further in the "good" it does.  It would keep people from saying their BTS was stolen from them.  Stolen from people who paid for the development of BTS2. My approach at least seems morally acceptable and is not blatant theft.

I see, that makes sense, total sense. I wasn't aware that the recipients of the vested BTS were selling them, or a significant portion of them, such that it has been negatively influencing the market. If that is indeed the case then delaying the vesting is a better solution, tho it is also changing the rules so is also quite controversial.

So much better than outright theft, whether that be to burn the unvested shares or use them for some other purpose.

The bottom line I think is the decision to do this is all about ethics and integrity, not about practicality.

Is self preservation ever an excuse for theft?

If self preservation is a rational basis for violence, even violence leading to the death of the aggressor,  which is the equivalent of theft of life, then it follows that the answer is yes, if survival is at stake theft is a rational response to what is threatening survival. Is it overly dramatic to apply that to the question at hand? If not there is no sound basis for the action proposed.

Although the case empirical made for eliminating the vesting and stopping future delivery of those shares is based on a failure of that vesting to achieve it's goal, that cannot be viewed as a good reason for taking the proposed action. As I said before, the contract was flawed, but it isn't reasonable to change the contract retroactively and that is exactly what this is.

Now that I've thought about this more and boil it down to the essentials, I find it difficult to see the present situation as one that threatens the survival of the ecosystem and so theft should be off the table IMO.

As to lengthening the vesting period, that retroactively violates the past agreement and this will negatively impact the integrity and trust others will have in BitShares and by induction the members of this entire community.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 07:00:34 pm by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline pc

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Of course they're actual BTS, but you stimulated a question, are they already distributed, but have a lock, OR, are they not created until the "lock" (vesting period) expires?

Quite simple: all vesting balances are counted into the total supply. Remaining vesting balances from the merger count into the total supply of the BTS-2 genesis. IOW: BTS vesting balances exist while they're vesting, they are merely locked up.
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Offline svk

I'm curious as to what could possibly beat the merger here, what's your #1?

My #1 is the decision to distribute 50% of all BTS to PTS (and distribute based on simply holding said PTS and not actually donating those to the project(funding development). PTS being a weird combination of 90% fast mined coins held by a handful of miner whales, and 10% by small miners and buyers on the open market.

My #2 is the merger by I also include here (call it #2a) the "invention" of so called self funding chains. I believe only the self diluting chains was invented, for self funding we need another element...."funds"... money and not only a way to give a stake to what I call worker-speculators (aka devs that need the money so they can put food on the table the second they receive the new shares).

My #3 is Titan plus the general idea to  go with non standard chain and then to poorly design it to the point of needing to abandon it in what 6 mo.?... I call it playing Sony before the start-up has even learned how to walk (aka finance itself)

After those 3 there is a ton of other non-sense and or unwise decisions that I can not put in any particular order of impact...
Right, thanks, can't really argue with that list. I arrived after the Feb 28 snapshot myself so never had much interest in that distribution.
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Offline mf-tzo

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I will try to keep my self cool with this thread and will try not to start saying bad words...But what a f..k are you guys smoking?? Do you really want to change again something that was agreed?? I can't believe that you guys are even discussing this..let the vesting finish and let's move on...

Offline gamey

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Surprised nobody commented about the value these vested funds represent as I did. What good does delaying the vesting? The major point of vesting is to retain talent, and that aspect is mostly gone as empirical said. Same with deleting them. Sure that counters inflation, but how significant is that in the bigger picture? That primarily makes sense to the anti-dilution crowd, who offer zero input on how to pay for sustaining this ecosystem let alone improving it. They seem to loose sight of the fact their holding will become worthless if the ecosystem dies or cannot be maintained. Maybe the illusion of protecting their holdings is blinding them to the slow death that zero tolerance dilution will bring.

You could make the vesting period 5x longer and really slow the downward pressure.  You could also just stop the whole process for X years. 

What good would this do?  It would slow/stop the dilution that is apparently bleeding BTS.  My understand that is the objective of the suggestion in this thread. This would go further in the "good" it does.  It would keep people from saying their BTS was stolen from them.  Stolen from people who paid for the development of BTS2. My approach at least seems morally acceptable and is not blatant theft.
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Offline Empirical1.2

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i think the question is not clear.

if you intent to free my vesting BTS we could do it, if you want to delete it i am against it. I hope this poll is about the first one.

Apologies for the unclear question, the poll was to delete it,  merockstar has also declared his yes vote void.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22237.msg289902.html#msg289902

I don't like editing polls after but as a few have been unclear on this point I will put an edit in the OP.

deleting! what a terrible idea. i don't even want to think about this, why should we do this? srew me and others more then now?

Nearly all of my BTS are vesting BTS too, my reasons why this could be in the best interest of BTS are in the OP and my other replies in the thread.
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Offline tonyk

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I'm curious as to what could possibly beat the merger here, what's your #1?

My #1 is the decision to distribute 50% of all BTS to PTS (and distribute based on simply holding said PTS and not actually donating those to the project(funding development). PTS being a weird combination of 90% fast mined coins held by a handful of miner whales, and 10% by small miners and buyers on the open market.

My #2 is the merger by I also include here (call it #2a) the "invention" of so called self funding chains. I believe only the self diluting chains was invented, for self funding we need another element...."funds"... money and not only a way to give a stake to what I call worker-speculators (aka devs that need the money so they can put food on the table the second they receive the new shares).

My #3 is Titan plus the general idea to  go with non standard chain and then to poorly design it to the point of needing to abandon it in what 6 mo.?... I call it playing Sony before the start-up has even learned how to walk (aka finance itself)

After those 3 there is a ton of other non-sense and or unwise decisions that I can not put in any particular order of impact...
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Thom

Quote
It really comes down to how one sees the vested balances. Does one see them as actual BTS?

Of course they're actual BTS, but you stimulated a question, are they already distributed, but have a lock, OR, are they not created until the "lock" (vesting period) expires? If the former, it is undeniably theft. If the later, it's an unkept promise. Either way it's essentially the same thing.

From a security standpoint, is it easier to hack a wallet if the BTS were delivered but marked as "locked" until the vesting is over or wait until the vesting is over before actual delivery into the wallet? In either case it would require a deeper knowledge of the code than I have.

And again it's probably an irrelevant point.

Surprised nobody commented about the value these vested funds represent as I did. What good does delaying the vesting? The major point of vesting is to retain talent, and that aspect is mostly gone as empirical said. Same with deleting them. Sure that counters inflation, but how significant is that in the bigger picture? That primarily makes sense to the anti-dilution crowd, who offer zero input on how to pay for sustaining this ecosystem let alone improving it. They seem to loose sight of the fact their holding will become worthless if the ecosystem dies or cannot be maintained. Maybe the illusion of protecting their holdings is blinding them to the slow death that zero tolerance dilution will bring.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 05:07:32 pm by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Shentist

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i think the question is not clear.

if you intent to free my vesting BTS we could do it, if you want to delete it i am against it. I hope this poll is about the first one.

Apologies for the unclear question, the poll was to delete it,  merockstar has also declared his yes vote void.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22237.msg289902.html#msg289902

I don't like editing polls after but as a few have been unclear on this point I will put an edit in the OP.

deleting! what a terrible idea. i don't even want to think about this, why should we do this? srew me and others more then now?