Author Topic: Engineering Trust  (Read 2280 times)

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Offline lovejoy

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We need to form the League of Extraordinary Decentralized Applications... like a Hanseatic League for the 21st century.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

A community is the only real trust aggregator.  Multi-sig, apart from the power of social contract, is perhaps the best technology we have to safeguard against corruption.

I think what you're describing is a never before seen entity, part bank, part MAS, league, union, cooperative... on a blockchain.  It sounds a lot like BitShares 3.0  :P

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How about increasingly better levels of service rather than being increasingly more stingy and restrictive?

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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A very philosophical article,  very admirable. +5%
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Offline Ben Mason

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People trust whatever's easy, even when the 'fruit' is constantly rotten, until a critically depraved point is reached. When the time comes, if we want people to trust our engineering, it must be EASY.  Easy to use and easy to uderstand.

In order to help people understand we need to work very hard to describe what they are trusting in ways that are authentic, yet digestible.

If you put your hard earned salary into BitShares and its products, here is what you are potentially trusting;

Stable access to electricity
The Internet
Computer (and other hardware) manufacturers
Virus protection software manufacturers
All software manufacturers whose products you have installed
BitShares software developers
Software developers as a peer group
The governance configuration
Your community
Yourself

I'm not even sure I can trust myself, let alone everything else I'm trusting. I do so with quite a leap of faith!

So we need to define the trust implications, then we need to work on what can be improved.  Support for trusting one's self that is easy and well explained is essential to anyone that's risk averse.


emailtooaj's idea for code security auditing tools is awesome!




Offline emailtooaj

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What does this all tell us about what we should engineer next?
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How about actually paying decent interest earned from 100% income producing assets backing a currency instead of fractional reserve debt?

I hope you're digging for opinions relating to Real Estate, Deed Recording, Commercial/Investment Properties and the such???
-or-
Building software tech that finds "Security Swiss holes" in current/future blockchain tech,  including our own, aiming to be the industry standard??


How'bout both!

 :D


BTW- great little read! Let's the imagination run!
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Offline Stan

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Engineering Trust

Humans, in general, cannot be trusted.  We can trust some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but, since we never can really tell which is which, we try hard not to trust anyone any of the time.

Unfortunately, unless we want to carry all of our wealth around with us (and trust others not to rob us or ourselves not to lose it) we wind up having to trust others to look after it, like it or not.  The best we can do is spread our wealth out among several of the least untrustworthy custodians (in our expert opinion) and hope for the best.

Since being trusted with Other People’s Money is a lucrative business, a lot of effort is spent trying to come up with systems and processes that are more trustworthy than the sum of their parts.  This is an art more than a science.

For example, put physical gold bullion in a safe deposit box with two keys held jointly by four security-bonded close relatives sealed in a steel vault with two combinations and an atomic clock timer that only opens on Wednesdays at noon under a big concrete nuclear-hardened bunker with guards and laser motion sensors surrounded by an 8 foot electric fence at the bottom of a shark infested ocean on the dark side of the moon – with a convenient back door for use only by the bank and the government (if absolutely necessary). 

But all that costs money, so you replace the gold coins with paper and then replace the paper with electronic ledger entries which you encrypt and back up with triply redundant dissimilar, fault tolerant, decentralized Intel® processors accessible only when three people on different continents supply the right three-factor-authentication cryptographic signatures within a small time-out period on Wednesdays at noon – with a convenient back door for use only by the bank or the government (if absolutely necessary). 

Then you layer marketing on top of that.  You see, it’s not good enough (or even necessary) to do all that work if you can just make your customers believe you are the most secure.  So you move into an expansive suite on the top floor of the tallest skyscraper in a big city and insist that all your employees wear suits with monogrammed gold cuff links while you put up a nice glitzy web site and advertise how many customers you have demographically, consisting mostly of People Just Like You who have happy and attractive families of 2.5 perfect but otherwise ordinary multi-ethnicity children enjoying their worry free leisure activities with a little four letter Seal of Approval in the corner that indicates their funds are protected by draconian regulations and “insured by an official sounding private cartel that might be the government” – with no need for that bank or the government to ever use their convenient back doors (unless absolutely necessary). 

Today’s digital currency solutions are a lot like that.  You’ve got to have a blockchain with cryptographically entangled records certified to be correct by a large number of computers (often controlled by a much smaller number of people) running software that makes it easy for everyone to detect if anyone is cheating and requiring most of them to agree that the one selected to sign each record did it right using binary applications downloaded from an official web site where everyone assumes everyone else has looked at every line of source code to make sure that there are no convenient back doors that will never be used by the developers or the government (unless absolutely necessary).

But, since the average consumer cannot tell which of the many traditional and cutting-edge options available to them today are actually trustworthy, most wind up picking something that merely sounds good or has been suggested to them by somebody else who they, ahem, trust.

Is there a Turing Test for Trustworthiness?

Alan Turing, famous for giving us the phrase “Turing complete”, may be even more famous for his artificial intelligence “Turing Test”:  If a person can’t tell the difference when texting with a black box containing a human and another containing a computer, the computer can be said, in some sense, to be able to think.

The average consumer is no more able to look inside the complex “piggy banks” that offer to protect her wealth than she can look inside one of Turing’s black boxes.  There is no way she is going to analyze the difference between “proof of work” or “proof of stake” any more than she can examine the ambiguous relationships between big institutions and the faceless miscreants who allegedly regulate them.   Whether the core of a piggy bank is manned or unmanned, if you expand black boxes that surround them enough they will eventually contain the corruptible humans that built, operate, and tell you how safe they are.  Manned and unmanned piggybanks are indistinguishable to the average consumer.

So she winds up needing a “Turing Test for Trustworthiness”.  She can’t tell what’s going on inside any manned or unmanned piggy bank she is considering.  Like every new human she meets, she must observe them from the outside and decide how much to trust them by the results they produce.  Like trees, she “knows them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles.  So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.”   

Bad fruits might include confiscating depositor funds ala Cyprus bail-ins, changing banking laws so that bail-ins are the new normal, seizing funds before someone is proven guilty, placing capital controls on how much of your own money you can move or withdraw, abolishing cash so negative interest rates can be enforced more easily, printing money from nothing and giving it to your friends to spend first, spending the same funds multiple times, designating deposits as unsecured loans to be paid back only if there is any money left, and giving less and less service at ever increasing costs.

What might good fruits be?  Well, how about complete transparency in where a customer’s money is?  How about actually paying decent interest earned from 100% income producing assets backing a currency instead of fractional reserve debt?  How about tolerating no inflation, ever. Maybe some, or even all, of the profits could be transparently invested into humanitarian projects for the good of mankind.  How about building the system that enforces its promised behavior with open source software running on a neutral public platform independently operated by the people most trusted by those who are using the currency?  How about increasingly better levels of service rather than being increasingly more stingy and restrictive?  How about encouraging competition and freedom of choice?

None of these things can guarantee what’s actually inside the heart any given black box.  In the end corruptible humans run them all. But the more good fruit we see coming out of one, the more willing we might be to trust it with our own money!


Some trust governments to be honest referees.
Some trust big companies, celebrities or brand names.
Some trust science.  Some trust religion.
Some trust robotically honest unmanned software.

We engineer trust. 
We want the public to trust what we engineer.

What does this all tell us about what we should engineer next?



« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 08:22:43 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.