Author Topic: Now that Daniel Larimer (aka bytemaster) is gone...  (Read 61747 times)

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Offline karnal

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Soooooooo how about that Bitshares thing huh? :)

WHAT do YOU want?

Privacy.

Ordinary people using it as an online banking system.

Traders using it for forex, speculation.

Savers using BitETFs and Smartcoins to store wealth.

I want to be able to store wealth privately on the blockchain, to trade, save, invest, speculate, to do with my hard earned money what I please.

I want to be able to pay online using BitUSD.
I want to be able to send 500 BitUSD to a friend who needs a break instantly, across the world.

I want to use the dishonest, corrupt, extorting banking system as little as I have to.
I'll take ownership of my finances.

Fantastic.. now on a scale from 1 - 5, because I counted 5 things there, what order of importance do you think those things should be introduced? 1 being MOST important, and 5 being least.

1 - privacy: It's the foundation, imo. If all financial operations are transparent, not many people will use the system.

It's the point that I've made before.. would you use your online banking system if anyone in the world could look up all of your transactions and balances?

Through multiple wallets, transparently proxying, setting up your own wss:// endpoints, it is possible to maintain decent privacy (all balances public but no one knows who they belong to, like bitcoin) .. but this necessitates a level of skill far above the ordinary user, and it is error prone.

And frankly, also as previously pointed out, if the idea was having N wallets with 1 account each, and never reusing a wallet/account after one transaction .. then it makes no sense at all to have named accounts!

It's ok that market orders are all public data (though if that could be improved, even better) since if stealth'd funds can be sent to/from these accounts for trading, then it is still possible to maintain privacy.


2 - Improve the platform for traders, as it is this sort of user who will likely (as far as I can see) drive usage of the platform up in the beginning.
A few things here:

2a: As mentioned previously on the thread, at least stop-loss orders ought to be available.. it's hard for any serious trader to consider the platform without that.

2b: Offer a broad selection of MPA individual stocks and ETFs, possibly focusing only on BitCNY and BitUSD markets for now.
2c: Push forward the idea of the crypto ETFs, tracking the top crypto performers, as was being discussed in the forum some weeks ago.. assuming the mechanics of the idea check out, afaik we'd be one of a few places where such a product exists (they had something similar over NXT a year ago)
2d: FOREX applications. Perhaps focus on a few hot ones in the beginning, such as BitUSD:BitRUR. With decent marketing, this one could be huge.. have you seen the fees charged by most brokers recently? (same for stocks/etfs, really) It's absurd .. and if investors could get in easily (not so difficult through bitcoin, though it could be improved), and pay peanuts in fees.. I'm sure they'd be interested - at least a small part of that market segment (initially).

3 - Ordinary people using the network as essentially an online banking platform; Assuming privacy is already in place, frankly I think this needs a new wallet interface .. something more dumbed down, with less trading stuff, that looks more like an online banking interface.

That said, I don't think that new hypothetical dumbed-down wallet has to be a priority right now, as initially it will be people who're already familiar with crypto that (again, in my opinion) would be interested in using Bitshares to a) hedge against BTC price fluctuations (banking a "sure profit") and b) reduce their exposure/liability to the legacy banking system by maintaining fiat balances on the blockchain.

What that translates to is getting stealth done, and marketing bitshares as the online bank kind of thing, where crypto-traders can come to stash their profits. I think initially, with few exceptions, that'd be the target audience.

Paying online with BitUSD (to begin with?) goes anywhere in that list after privacy. I think there is a definite need here as well, right now it's already possible to pay in fiat-denominated amounts using crypto, but it tends to involve shapeshifting to bitcoin, and giving away ownership of said bitcoins to a third party.

So, I'd say in the online payments arena, we need one or more of:
 a) A bitpay.com for Bitshares (or even enter into conversations with them to allow payments in BitUSD)
 b) A btcjam.com for Bitshares (makes a lot more sense for the value to be denominated in fiat in this case!) - this would bring users and raise awareness of the platform as well. And I think it would blow the competition out in the water immediately..
 c) All the good work that @kenCode and his team are doing right now.
 d) A Smartcoin-backed plastic card that uses the "direct debit" features that afaik are unique to the Bitshares blockchain



The way I see it, barring speculation, the value of our core token (BTS) will only increase and remain high once there are millions of dollars of funds being secured by the blockchain - and that means real users with real, real-world applications.

Traders, savers, investors, speculators.

To close, I also think that @ccedk (and whoever else is involved! pardon my ignorance) has been doing a great job with the UIAs for ICO/IPOs such as, recently, OPEN.DGD. This is an excellent idea and hopefully it will carry on.

And finally, of things like the bond market, I have no opinion, as truly, I don't understand it.

edit: Forgot liquidity, but iirc this is already slowly being taken care of.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 02:01:24 pm by karnal »

jakub

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I wish Jakub didn't get so offended if I post these discussions on steemit.com in order to make a little money for reinvestment in my bitshares related projects (currently funded out of my own pocket). I hate to offend the boy.
Please, don't play a fool now.
I'm not "offended" by you posting your misconstrued reply on steemit.

I just thought implying that I am a troll was highly inappropriate.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Soooooooo how about that Bitshares thing huh? :)

WHAT do YOU want?

Privacy.

Ordinary people using it as an online banking system.

Traders using it for forex, speculation.

Savers using BitETFs and Smartcoins to store wealth.

I want to be able to store wealth privately on the blockchain, to trade, save, invest, speculate, to do with my hard earned money what I please.

I want to be able to pay online using BitUSD.
I want to be able to send 500 BitUSD to a friend who needs a break instantly, across the world.

I want to use the dishonest, corrupt, extorting banking system as little as I have to.
I'll take ownership of my finances.

Fantastic.. now on a scale from 1 - 5, because I counted 5 things there, what order of importance do you think those things should be introduced? 1 being MOST important, and 5 being least.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 12:17:25 pm by BunkerChain Labs »
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Offline karnal

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Soooooooo how about that Bitshares thing huh? :)

WHAT do YOU want?

Privacy.

Ordinary people using it as an online banking system.

Traders using it for forex, speculation.

Savers using BitETFs and Smartcoins to store wealth.

I want to be able to store wealth privately on the blockchain, to trade, save, invest, speculate, to do with my hard earned money what I please.

I want to be able to pay online using BitUSD.
I want to be able to send 500 BitUSD to a friend who needs a break instantly, across the world.

I want to use the dishonest, corrupt, extorting banking system as little as I have to.
I'll take ownership of my finances.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Soooooooo how about that Bitshares thing huh? :)

WHAT do YOU want?
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Offline onceuponatime


Given there's only circa $20k buy support for STEEM down to a zero valuation, how much could someone like rgcrypto who has apparently earned $20k STEEM USD realistically convert to BTC over a day/week/month if conditions resembling the current market exist on Jul 5th or whenever they become redeemable?

It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential.

I can see user numbers increasing while the rewards appear generous, however I don't believe that will necessarily translate into increased market demand for Steem.

Also relatively little Steem has been up for sale to date, I imagine after July 4th there will be people looking to redeem their SBD, so even if there's some kind of self-balancing mechanism, demand may actually decrease closer to that date as traders anticipate a potential increase in supply for sale.

Whichever outcome, I imagine people will only be able to redeem their SBD at a trickle, which could disincentivize users and even upset some who thought they had earned a lot of SBD they would be able to redeem reasonably swiftly.   

So my personal opinion is that there isn't really a good case for shareholders to invest in Steem and I think it could run into user issues as well. Obviously we'll have to see it how it all plays out at the time.

Here is a quote from a Bytemaster srticle on steemit.com entitled "Why people will buy STEEM". I suggest that you might find the article enlightening.

"The primary reason people buy Bitcoin is because it is a cryptocurrency with a large base of people who know about it and are willing to transact in it. The secondary reason is it has a large amount of liquidity. Steem has the potential to build a much larger user base than Bitcoin and provides financial incentives for liquidity. This combination means that Steem could become a better known currency than Bitcoin and thus become easier to transact in than Bitcoin. If market participants perceive this possibility they will buy."
https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/why-people-will-buy-steem

Other points covered in the article include:
Social Value
Demand for Influence and Transactions
Advertising Demand
Monetary Use

As you mentioned/quoted previously, Steem deliberately went against all the crypto-currency communities cultural regulations,

Quote

Perhaps the Bitcoin Communities cultural regulations are a blessing in disguise. By intentionally violating every one of their expectations you can minimize your token’s value at launch

...You just need thick skin and the ability to ignore the Bitcoin pharisees and the angry mob they incite to nail you to a cross...

http://bytemaster.github.io/article/2016/03/27/How-to-Launch-a-Crypto-Currency-Legally-while-Raising-Funds/

Which is fine, but as a result of intentionally violating every one of the cultural regulations around how to launch a crypto-currency, I think it's unlikely to become widely popular and supported as a crypto-currency in it's own right.

Now I think you are stretching things.

Steemit.com is going to make crypto-currency available and popular and bring it to the NON crypt-currency centric masses who like and use social media. (The more aware of whom realize how much they are being exploited by the likes of Facebook) Yes, it seems to have stepped on the toes of some of the "mining mafia", but even there some really do get the liberating aspects of this new paradigm.

I wish Jakub didn't get so offended if I post these discussions on steemit.com in order to make a little money for reinvestment in my bitshares related projects (currently funded out of my own pocket). I hate to offend the boy. The really funny thing is that I am also getting flack over at steemit from one guy (who obviously didn't arrive there from BitShares - but is probably an early miner) for saying that some of us would likely be using our steemit earnings to further BitShares. He says I have lost his vote for posting that I would use funds for supporting anything other than steem. I told him I support ALL graphene projects and that he seemed to have a severe case of myopia and should have his Vision checked.


Offline Empirical1.2

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Given there's only circa $20k buy support for STEEM down to a zero valuation, how much could someone like rgcrypto who has apparently earned $20k STEEM USD realistically convert to BTC over a day/week/month if conditions resembling the current market exist on Jul 5th or whenever they become redeemable?

It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential.

I can see user numbers increasing while the rewards appear generous, however I don't believe that will necessarily translate into increased market demand for Steem.

Also relatively little Steem has been up for sale to date, I imagine after July 4th there will be people looking to redeem their SBD, so even if there's some kind of self-balancing mechanism, demand may actually decrease closer to that date as traders anticipate a potential increase in supply for sale.

Whichever outcome, I imagine people will only be able to redeem their SBD at a trickle, which could disincentivize users and even upset some who thought they had earned a lot of SBD they would be able to redeem reasonably swiftly.   

So my personal opinion is that there isn't really a good case for shareholders to invest in Steem and I think it could run into user issues as well. Obviously we'll have to see it how it all plays out at the time.

Here is a quote from a Bytemaster srticle on steemit.com entitled "Why people will buy STEEM". I suggest that you might find the article enlightening.

"The primary reason people buy Bitcoin is because it is a cryptocurrency with a large base of people who know about it and are willing to transact in it. The secondary reason is it has a large amount of liquidity. Steem has the potential to build a much larger user base than Bitcoin and provides financial incentives for liquidity. This combination means that Steem could become a better known currency than Bitcoin and thus become easier to transact in than Bitcoin. If market participants perceive this possibility they will buy."
https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/why-people-will-buy-steem

Other points covered in the article include:
Social Value
Demand for Influence and Transactions
Advertising Demand
Monetary Use

As you mentioned/quoted previously, Steem deliberately went against all the crypto-currency communities cultural regulations,

Quote

Perhaps the Bitcoin Communities cultural regulations are a blessing in disguise. By intentionally violating every one of their expectations you can minimize your token’s value at launch

...You just need thick skin and the ability to ignore the Bitcoin pharisees and the angry mob they incite to nail you to a cross...

http://bytemaster.github.io/article/2016/03/27/How-to-Launch-a-Crypto-Currency-Legally-while-Raising-Funds/

Which is fine, but as a result of intentionally violating every one of the cultural regulations around how to launch a crypto-currency, I think it's unlikely to become widely popular and supported as a crypto-currency in it's own right.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 11:49:24 pm by Empirical1.2 »
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline onceuponatime


Given there's only circa $20k buy support for STEEM down to a zero valuation, how much could someone like rgcrypto who has apparently earned $20k STEEM USD realistically convert to BTC over a day/week/month if conditions resembling the current market exist on Jul 5th or whenever they become redeemable?

It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential.

I can see user numbers increasing while the rewards appear generous, however I don't believe that will necessarily translate into increased market demand for Steem.

Also relatively little Steem has been up for sale to date, I imagine after July 4th there will be people looking to redeem their SBD, so even if there's some kind of self-balancing mechanism, demand may actually decrease closer to that date as traders anticipate a potential increase in supply for sale.

Whichever outcome, I imagine people will only be able to redeem their SBD at a trickle, which could disincentivize users and even upset some who thought they had earned a lot of SBD they would be able to redeem reasonably swiftly.   

So my personal opinion is that there isn't really a good case for shareholders to invest in Steem and I think it could run into user issues as well. Obviously we'll have to see it how it all plays out at the time.

Here is a quote from a Bytemaster srticle on steemit.com entitled "Why people will buy STEEM". I suggest that you might find the article enlightening.

"The primary reason people buy Bitcoin is because it is a cryptocurrency with a large base of people who know about it and are willing to transact in it. The secondary reason is it has a large amount of liquidity. Steem has the potential to build a much larger user base than Bitcoin and provides financial incentives for liquidity. This combination means that Steem could become a better known currency than Bitcoin and thus become easier to transact in than Bitcoin. If market participants perceive this possibility they will buy."
https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/why-people-will-buy-steem

Other points covered in the article include:
Social Value
Demand for Influence and Transactions
Advertising Demand
Monetary Use

Offline karnal

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If I was a rich guy and wanted to park my money and assets somewhere safe, would I choose the BitShares blockchain? Or would I be a bit skiddish knowing that my assets and such would be visible on cryptofresh.com? Even sending money to people is easily visible.
 
edit: the only features we are going to add to BitShares right now is Stealth (as soon as we can afford it). Stealth is already done for the most part but it just needs an awesome gui plugged in and secure backups (we use IPFS/IPNS now). you want Whales? -give them some privacy.

I've tried to bring several moderately well-off people into Bitshares, they were ALL completely turned off by the fact that all balances are public...


Actually BTS balances are as public as BTC and ETH.
Stealth is a useful feature but I feel we begin to fall into the same illusion as we did so many times before: "we just need this one more feature and then everything will be fine".

For me the problem is much for fundamental.
BitShares has a governance problem, not lack of features.

Yeah.. no.

As ethereum, maybe. But if you look up their roadmap, the total lack of privacy in ethereum is seen as an issue, and it's planned to be addressed.
Compared with bitcoin, no, not at all.

We have account names in bitshares supposedly to make it simple to transfer. It does not scale on bitshares to create one account per transaction and never reuse the account name, that completely defeats the purpose of having named accounts.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Given there's only circa $20k buy support for STEEM down to a zero valuation, how much could someone like rgcrypto who has apparently earned $20k STEEM USD realistically convert to BTC over a day/week/month if conditions resembling the current market exist on Jul 5th or whenever they become redeemable?

It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential.

I can see user numbers increasing while the rewards appear generous, however I don't believe that will necessarily translate into increased market demand for Steem.

Also relatively little Steem has been up for sale to date, I imagine after July 4th there will be people looking to redeem their SBD, so even if there's some kind of self-balancing mechanism, demand may actually decrease closer to that date as traders anticipate a potential increase in supply for sale.

Whichever outcome, I imagine people will only be able to redeem their SBD at a trickle, which could disincentivize users and even upset some who thought they had earned a lot of SBD they would be able to redeem reasonably swiftly.   

So my personal opinion is that there isn't really a good case for shareholders to invest in Steem and I think it could run into user issues as well. Obviously we'll have to see it how it all plays out at the time.
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline D4vegee

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I hope STEEM crashes and burns. The devs deserve it. They pissed on BTS investors.

Offline mint chocolate chip

Before July 4, who is doing most of the selling?

We have secured ~80% of the initial STEEM via mining.  Our plan is to...sell 20%.

I think the powers that be did not anticipate a paltry 3-10 bitcoin worth of STEEM trading volume per day.

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It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential. From a Steemit post:

Imagine Apple and McDonalds buying Steem Power

"Where Steem comes in, is in the area of journalism and media. With ad-blocking on the rise and advertisers no longer willing to do expensive advertising campaigns, a model of media underpinned with a blockchain might be the answer. I can imagine Apple and McDonalds and other buying Steem Power to upvote any viral story that made their brands look good. I can see political parties doing the same, ditto pressure groups. Imagine the money that could be made at election time - in fact I think we should contact the Dems and GOP and ask them if they want to vote stuff up!

Steemit could be a new way of monetizing content - instead of the reader having to put up with ads, the advertiser simply purchases Steem Power and sets a bot to upvote any post that mentions their brand."

I don't understand why Apple or McDonalds would buy any. They wouldn't be able to influence what people see, they would just be able to reward people who successfully managed to give them free advertising.

Do you really see a big corporation doing that?

For the record, steemit currently uses the same ranking algorithm as Reddit.  Rich whales do not dictate what you see.  Just who gets paid. 
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22561.msg293587.html#msg293587

Offline Empirical1.2

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It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential. From a Steemit post:

Imagine Apple and McDonalds buying Steem Power

"Where Steem comes in, is in the area of journalism and media. With ad-blocking on the rise and advertisers no longer willing to do expensive advertising campaigns, a model of media underpinned with a blockchain might be the answer. I can imagine Apple and McDonalds and other buying Steem Power to upvote any viral story that made their brands look good. I can see political parties doing the same, ditto pressure groups. Imagine the money that could be made at election time - in fact I think we should contact the Dems and GOP and ask them if they want to vote stuff up!

Steemit could be a new way of monetizing content - instead of the reader having to put up with ads, the advertiser simply purchases Steem Power and sets a bot to upvote any post that mentions their brand."

Thanks for making an interesting argument. I would disagree though.

While regular content is frequently influenced in that manner on the mainstream media primarily due to concentration of media ownership and lack of choice, social media users generally avoid platforms they feel lack media integrity.

Quote
Media integrity

Media integrity refers to the ability of a media outlet to serve the public interest and democratic process, making it resilient to institutional corruption within the media system, economy of influence, conflicting dependence and political clientelism. Such a situation enables excessive instrumentalisation of the media for particular political interests, which is subverting democratic role of the media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership

A good example of this is Digg, a Reddit-esque platform that went from a $200 million valuation in 2008 to being sold for $500 000 in 2012 as users believed the content was overly influenced by advertisers as opposed to users https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22561.msg293583.html#msg293583
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 08:57:49 pm by Empirical1.2 »
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline kenCode

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It is unreasonable to assume that current conditions will persist. Steemit.com's user base is growing exponentially. And with that comes great potential. From a Steemit post:

Imagine Apple and McDonalds buying Steem Power

"Where Steem comes in, is in the area of journalism and media. With ad-blocking on the rise and advertisers no longer willing to do expensive advertising campaigns, a model of media underpinned with a blockchain might be the answer. I can imagine Apple and McDonalds and other buying Steem Power to upvote any viral story that made their brands look good. I can see political parties doing the same, ditto pressure groups. Imagine the money that could be made at election time - in fact I think we should contact the Dems and GOP and ask them if they want to vote stuff up!

Steemit could be a new way of monetizing content - instead of the reader having to put up with ads, the advertiser simply purchases Steem Power and sets a bot to upvote any post that mentions their brand."

Bingo.  +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
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