Is it possible for bitshares to become a sidechain of bitcoin?

[Chronos]

I always feel it will be better to be able to set proxy separately for witness

Good thoughts. That seems like a very good feature, after hearing your explanation.

[bitcrab]

I always feel that the voting to witnesses is different with voting to committee+worker.

voting to witness is mostly a technique problem, need to check the behavior of each witness, is it stable? what's the block missing rate?
voting to witness is a key factor to the security of the network, it's a key concern while considering problems like sidechains.

however, voting to committee+worker is mainly relevant to the policy and directions of the network/community.

the participation of voting is low at the moment, however, at least it can make committee and worker work,  but for witness, the low participation voting rate is always a risk/shortage.

I always feel it will be better to be able to set proxy separately for witness, then I'll set a proxy for voting witness as I am not so familiar with the behavior of each withness, however, I want to vote committee+worker by myself and as a proxy.

and I think while we discuss economic incentive to voting, we should focus on witness voting to grasp the main problem and avoid complex.

[bitsharesbrazil]

My opinion, with documentation we have,  keep improving it plus forum where you find what you want n ask what you want is enought for a person that iswanting a deep involvment n enjoy the dac features, eventually he/she will ask somenthing, focus should be always mantain n upgrade documentation, make language more user friendly, associate examples.

[Chronos]

So my question is, does a comprehensive and up to date video like this exist?  If not, why not?

Ironically, you have to vote to make it happen. 

Which is a real problem.  More than it being a ironic situation, it's a real sick situation.

I don't think it's a big problem. With the "proxy" feature, people who don't want to keep up-to-date on voting can delegate their vote to a community member whose opinion they trust. We'll need a video on that one. 

[Empirical1.2]

So my question is, does a comprehensive and up to date video like this exist?  If not, why not?

Ironically, you have to vote to make it happen. 

Which is a real problem.  More than it being a ironic situation, it's a real sick situation.

These are key elements of the Bitshares system, and part of the launch, these needed to be already prepared before letting this system into the wild.

You don't build a system, and hope that people will figure out how to use it. 

A good place to start would be a simple 'how to' voting graphic like the one I've seen one of the delegates make for LSK (to promote himself) I'm not sure we have one for BTS.

[crypto4ever]

So my question is, does a comprehensive and up to date video like this exist?  If not, why not?

Ironically, you have to vote to make it happen. 

Which is a real problem.  More than it being a ironic situation, it's a real sick situation.

These are key elements of the Bitshares system, and part of the launch, these needed to be already prepared before letting this system into the wild.

You don't build a system, and hope that people will figure out how to use it. 

Text documentation and forum postings only go so far.  Reading, and visualizing in your mind isn't as effective.

We really need some video tutorials, so people understand how the system works, so it lowers the barrier to entry as well as lowers the barrier to ongoing and active participation.

Watching a video, is much easier to acquaint yourself, and makes the process much easier.   I see the person do it on video.  I can repeat similar steps myself.

This is extremely important and where the Bitshares system has an emergency until it is corrected.

Chronos, I do like your videos.  However you shouldn't be the only leader in this space.   I'd like to see others join you in this as well.

It's one of the reasons that webinars have multiple speakers.  They compliment each other and give a more well rounded experience.

[Chronos]

So my question is, does a comprehensive and up to date video like this exist?  If not, why not?

Ironically, you have to vote to make it happen. 

See the Chronos Crypto Videos worker proposal. The worker has been approved, so our video documentation is on the right track.

First video is already out: Intro to Bitshares

[crypto4ever]

is it possible to add some economic incentive for voting?  for example is it possible to give voters some reward when the voted witness generate a new block? even a little reward can encourage voting.

Thought experiment:

Suppose every account had a knob we could turn increasing their pay until they were incentivized to take the time to vote.
One would assume that at that price they are still not incentivized to take the time to become suitably informed to vote.

I'm someone who doesn't vote.  I don't understand voting, and it is not because I am not incentivized to do so.

I did try it once, but couldn't fully figure it out.  This was about 8 months ago, and I gave up.

In order to vote, I realized I had to run around the forums looking for posts from people who wanted me to vote for them.   I finally figured I'd vote for fuzzy because I know him, and after listening to a beyond bitshares episode.   I tried doing a proxy vote, and still don't think I did it right, because when I went to the bts explorer, it says I have no votes.

Voting is new to me, and the importance is still sketchy.  I, like many others, probably feel, that the knowledgable are already voting, so my vote doesn't matter.

I admit, I'm not knowledgable enough to vote.

I'm one of the people that needs something to incentivize me, and it's more than an economic benefit.

I need the education and resources to do it.

What that means, is if there was a video tutorial on youtube, that says..

Ok, folks, if you are a Bitshares holder, this is how you vote, why you want to vote, and how to change your vote.

Let's begin.

First of all, I fire up my Bitshares light client, and I see where to vote.  Now before I vote, I want to decide who to vote for.  So then I do this, and read that.

Now that I'm ready to vote, I do this...

Now let's say it's a month later, and the person I voted for turned into a frog.  Ok, this is how I go and find a new person to vote for, and change my vote.

Voting is something you should check and change every X days or weeks.   If you don't, you could be innocently contributing to the problem with Bitshares growth and your own investment.

....

So my question is, does a comprehensive and up to date video like this exist?  If not, why not?

[Empirical1.2]

is it possible to add some economic incentive for voting?  for example is it possible to give voters some reward when the voted witness generate a new block? even a little reward can encourage voting.

LISK has profit sharing delegates.

Right now +-30% of LSK is on Polo. It will be interesting if over time, profit sharing delegates act as a sufficient incentive and if shareholders are informed enough to strike a balance between delegate types and combinations thereof.

dPoS will continue to be broken as long as there is no incentive to vote or penalty for not voting. At this point, I think the only way to fix it is by providing a penalty if you don't vote every so often, then your stake should be confiscated by the blockchain and burned. Kind of off topic from OP.. my bad.

So, to avoid penalty or earn incentives,  former non-voters would just vote randomly without thinking.
"Too lazy to vote, too lazy to think about a coerced vote."

Result: there are now a bunch of random votes blocking new decisions and making it hard for dedicated thinkers to respond quickly when issues do arise.  Therefore the project wanders adrift at sea without a rudder.

How would that do anything but harm?

BTS shareholders (or shareholders in any company) have made a capital investment in the future of that company.

Unlike centralized companies that require a vote as little as once per year, A decentralized company requires shareholders to engage in frequent voting which requires additional 'work'  & as Bytemaster correctly states in his latest blog imo...

Many people vote once and then forget to change their vote or they vote for a proxy and then forget to follow up. The usual end result is that it becomes difficult to vote out incumbents or vote in new individuals. The presence of voter apathy is a sign that incentives are not properly aligned in the system.

http://bytemaster.github.io/article/2016/01/04/The-Benefits-of-Proof-of-Work/

By incentivising voting and penalising non voting you are aligning incentives so that the small BTS shareholders are now paid for the additional 'work' and as they are BTS shareholders who have made a capital commitment to the success of the project, it is likely the majority of votes will not be random but considered.

Imo, either the majority of small BTS shareholders will vote responsibly if given an incentive & if not, then it means BTS is the most insecure blockchain on the planet and can be attacked with 0.05% of BTS.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20724.msg267990.html#msg267990

[bitcrab]

is it possible to add some economic incentive for voting?  for example is it possible to give voters some reward when the voted witness generate a new block? even a little reward can encourage voting.

Thought experiment:

Suppose every account had a knob we could turn increasing their pay until they were incentivized to take the time to vote.
One would assume that at that price they are still not incentivized to take the time to become suitably informed to vote.
So at this point, their vote is just a random variable reflecting lack of information or, worse, just the easily available disinformation. 
We could generate such uninformed, random votes automatically at much lower cost.
Why would we pay to inject their human generated equivalent into the system?
How much higher would you have to turn the dial to get them to study everything they need to know to vote wisely?
How would you prove they had actually done that work to earn the higher pay rate?

while discussing this, we need first to follow the decentralization principle, to say "generate votes" is just as saying "we can ask a consultant institution to decide who will be US President, the institution is more professional in doing this".

and here we can first focus on the witness voting, this does not cost much time for information, the "block missing rate" can be a main factor to estimate one witness.

while the voted witness generate block, the voter get some reward, and while the voted witness miss block, there will be some penalty to the voter.
the result: more voting, more efficient witness voted. more security network.

also just thought expriment.



 

[arhag]

TL;DR Don't know whether this be considered in the thread yet:
 If we want to automatically have top 15 witnesses multi-sig the BTC wallet, we need to improve voting participation first, otherwise for example btc38 would be able to steal the fund easily.

Another reason why only vested BTS should have voting rights. This would take away the voting power from exchanges because they would not be able to unvest fast enough to satisfy the possible withdrawal demands of their customers. So they would have to only hold and allow trading of the unvested liquid BTS (with no interest payments) which would not have any voting power.

[Stan]

is it possible to add some economic incentive for voting?  for example is it possible to give voters some reward when the voted witness generate a new block? even a little reward can encourage voting.

Thought experiment:

Suppose every account had a knob we could turn increasing their pay until they were incentivized to take the time to vote.
One would assume that at that price they are still not incentivized to take the time to become suitably informed to vote.
So at this point, their vote is just a random variable reflecting lack of information or, worse, just the easily available disinformation. 
We could generate such uninformed, random votes automatically at much lower cost.
Why would we pay to inject their human generated equivalent into the system?
How much higher would you have to turn the dial to get them to study everything they need to know to vote wisely?
How would you prove they had actually done that work to earn the higher pay rate?

[bitcrab]

TL;DR Don't know whether this be considered in the thread yet:
 If we want to automatically have top 15 witnesses multi-sig the BTC wallet, we need to improve voting participation first, otherwise for example btc38 would be able to steal the fund easily.

 
is this a big problem of DPoS? now in theory btc38 can build up 29 witnesses and vote them on to replace the current ones, is that a big risk of the system?

that is not the worst, the worst is if btc38 is hacked and the hacker get the whole BTS in the wallet, he can control all the witnesses

is it possible to add some economic incentive for voting?  for example is it possible to give voters some reward when the voted witness generate a new block? even a little reward can encourage voting.

[ivglavas]

This is second time app is cutting my message!!
It says also - feel free to contact me if I can be of help

[ivglavas]

@noisy If there will be any interest of getting involved into Augur markets, maybe I can help on connecting you guys. I have no knowledge about developing but have been working on a low liquid stock exchange so my skills and knowledge are other side from developing