Author Topic: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal  (Read 17856 times)

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Offline pc

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2014, 01:03:03 pm »
If you have a reason to wait please share. I can tell you many reasons why waiting can hurt shareholders. The protocol is inefficient, insecure, unscalable, and has a broken diff. algorithm. What we have now is a leaky bucket (more like a bucket cracked down the middle), pouring thousands of dollars of our wealth into the hands of a few centralized miners in exchange for literally NOTHING.

I have given my reasons.
Despite its undeniable deficiencies, PTS has been working fine for more than 9 months now.
The difficulty algorithm and block reward were known from the start, and have changed only once in the beginning - there really is nothing to complain about now. Yes, miners are now receiving block rewards for little work - but they still receive fewer PTS for much more work than many of the miners that were active in the early days of PTS. Like me. So what are you complaining  about?
 
And I don't buy the myth that some people are peddling here. The core DPOS functionality is absolutely functional and market-ready. BTSX is undeniable evidence of this fact. At this time it has a $21M market cap and is the 5th largest cryptocurrency on earth. If you consider that to be "premature" but feel comfortable with the broken status quo then your priorities are in a different place.

The BTS-X client has crashed several times on me. These crashes had to do with networking code, and with functions in the "fc" library. There are also numerous complaints in the forum. The client is seeing several updates peer week. To me, BTS-X provides undeniable evidence that the current DPOS implementation is immature.

Market cap is completely irrelevant - a 15 year old millionaire can't buy alcohol in the US.

PTS has never crashed on me. The difficulty adjustment sucks, but the client is stable and performs the job it was designed for quite well.
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Offline alphaBar

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2014, 02:00:52 am »
I want to highlight a point I made in the Chinese thread here: Even if everything about BTSX is an absolute success, ask yourself this question: do you think Ethereum would want to allocate 10% of their shares to a user-issued asset in BTSX (a direct competitor)?

In my opinion, this is the strongest argument in favor of an independent DPOS blockchain for PTS. PTS must remain neutral and independent if it is to reach its full potential and to reach the widest adoption by new DACS - some of which will be directly competing with BTSX.

**Long Edit: The point I am making is that the market will associate PTS (and AGS by association) as a subsidiary of BTSX. This may cause potentially competing products to avoid allocation to PTS. Ethereum is currently considering using DPOS but they are objecting to the AGS/PTS allocation. If PTS was moved to BitsharesX, I guarantee they would not want to support a user-issued asset in a competing currency. Marketing and public perception are critical to the success of PTS and AGS, since they were designed to be appealing to a wide range of DACs - NOT to be biased, preferential, or dependent upon any one DAC.

If Ethereum adopts DPOS my guess is that the price of PTS would at least double. By advocating for PTS to be a user-issued asset in BTSX, you would effectively be killing any chance of that happening. AGS holders would also profit nicely from Ethereum adoption. Why discourage them by associating PTS with BitsharesX??? You gain nothing by doing that, but lose a tremendous amount if the Ethereum crowd decides against DPOS.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 04:47:16 am by alphaBar »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2014, 10:43:00 pm »
pow just like a Blood drawing machine

It's a pitty BTS vote  can't be used right now for all PTS holder to choose the future.


why not do this
1.snapshot aug21
2.embedded pts into bitshares x as a Bitasset
3.give back the rest pts to the ags donater(use pts) & pts keeper  by the shares percent
4.let people get pts in bitshares x  through the private key

then  we can trede  directly   pts-cny    pts-btsx     in  bitsharesx  instead of  btc38 or bter


PTS as a bitasset  in bitsharesx
we can trade pts-bts  pts-cny  in low fees   instead of  btc38  0.1%fee
direct  pts-bts   not  pts-cny  cny-bts  in btc38  with  fee 0.2%

pts  is just a liquid  stock rights ,why not  chang into a bitasset  in Bitsharesx market?

if PTS(dpos) a new client  there will be  101+ new  delegate   & payment  is a waste

pts  as a asset in bitshares X with 2m total num is equal to AGS
but if  pts is a single  dpos ,  when it burns after few years, maybe  pts1.5m, AGS sitll 2m, it's not fair, that's a Naked plunder to agser

PTS as a user issued asset in BTSX is a mistake. PTS was intended to be an agnostic vehicle for distribution, and there are many aspects of BTSX that would taint that objective. See here for the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

We need to do what Bytemaster suggested and what the community agreed to: use the August 21st snapshot to migrate to an independent DPOS chain. I still haven't heard from testz about a migration plan, milestone dates, required resources, or anything other than "ok, we'll do it later". Well, this is what happens when you kick the can... I also blame I3 for not giving this the tiny amount of resources that would be required to take the reference client and rebrand it. Really just a shame what is happening here.
the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

i never see this before
and  onebody  mention it  in Chinese community (i think  chinese are Big shareholders)

are you sure   this  vote stand for  all the pts holder's thought?

Stan posted something like 6 different threads over the past few months about the same thing. All of the discussions converged on the same conclusion - a standalone DPOS chain for PTS with no dilution. There is no other way forward. If we dilute the currency we will kill all confidence in the coin and the Bitshares ecosystem.

Stan'post  discussed the rest pts's distribution&change into DPOS  when btsx has not come out.

i post a vote in chinese community
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7105.0

i think  PTS  migrated to a user-issued asset in BTSX  is the simplest&easy way

X-post: PTS was intended to be a distribution mechanism for future DACs. Making it a user-issued asset in the very first DAC violates the intent of PTS. There are very ambitious features of the BTSX DAC that could fail spectacularly, independent of DPOS (pegged assets, for example). PTS should not be subject to the volatility and risk introduced by these features or future features that may be implemented by BTSX. PTS should be independent, both in price, volatility, and features from the DACs that are born from it. It should be the Switzerland of DACs, agnostic and separate from even the market perceptions of a DAC and its features. This way it ends up representing a more distributed and non-biased segment of investors who are not for or against any particular feature of any particular DAC, but who believe in the underlying protocol as a foundation (DPOS). Even the marketing and perceptions of a particular DAC (today or in the future) has the potential to taint PTS and dissuade future DACs from using PTS.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2014, 06:40:48 pm »
b) this is not rushed. I think it would be premature at this time.

If you have a reason to wait please share. I can tell you many reasons why waiting can hurt shareholders. The protocol is inefficient, insecure, unscalable, and has a broken diff. algorithm. What we have now is a leaky bucket (more like a bucket cracked down the middle), pouring thousands of dollars of our wealth into the hands of a few centralized miners in exchange for literally NOTHING.

And I don't buy the myth that some people are peddling here. The core DPOS functionality is absolutely functional and market-ready. BTSX is undeniable evidence of this fact. At this time it has a $21M market cap and is the 5th largest cryptocurrency on earth. If you consider that to be "premature" but feel comfortable with the broken status quo then your priorities are in a different place.

Offline sudo

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2014, 05:52:32 pm »
pow just like a Blood drawing machine

It's a pitty BTS vote  can't be used right now for all PTS holder to choose the future.


why not do this
1.snapshot aug21
2.embedded pts into bitshares x as a Bitasset
3.give back the rest pts to the ags donater(use pts) & pts keeper  by the shares percent
4.let people get pts in bitshares x  through the private key

then  we can trede  directly   pts-cny    pts-btsx     in  bitsharesx  instead of  btc38 or bter


PTS as a bitasset  in bitsharesx
we can trade pts-bts  pts-cny  in low fees   instead of  btc38  0.1%fee
direct  pts-bts   not  pts-cny  cny-bts  in btc38  with  fee 0.2%

pts  is just a liquid  stock rights ,why not  chang into a bitasset  in Bitsharesx market?

if PTS(dpos) a new client  there will be  101+ new  delegate   & payment  is a waste

pts  as a asset in bitshares X with 2m total num is equal to AGS
but if  pts is a single  dpos ,  when it burns after few years, maybe  pts1.5m, AGS sitll 2m, it's not fair, that's a Naked plunder to agser

PTS as a user issued asset in BTSX is a mistake. PTS was intended to be an agnostic vehicle for distribution, and there are many aspects of BTSX that would taint that objective. See here for the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

We need to do what Bytemaster suggested and what the community agreed to: use the August 21st snapshot to migrate to an independent DPOS chain. I still haven't heard from testz about a migration plan, milestone dates, required resources, or anything other than "ok, we'll do it later". Well, this is what happens when you kick the can... I also blame I3 for not giving this the tiny amount of resources that would be required to take the reference client and rebrand it. Really just a shame what is happening here.
the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

i never see this before
and  onebody  mention it  in Chinese community (i think  chinese are Big shareholders)

are you sure   this  vote stand for  all the pts holder's thought?

Stan posted something like 6 different threads over the past few months about the same thing. All of the discussions converged on the same conclusion - a standalone DPOS chain for PTS with no dilution. There is no other way forward. If we dilute the currency we will kill all confidence in the coin and the Bitshares ecosystem.

Stan'post  discussed the rest pts's distribution&change into DPOS  when btsx has not come out.

i post a vote in chinese community
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7105.0

i think  PTS  migrated to a user-issued asset in BTSX  is the simplest&easy way
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:57:17 pm by sudo »

Offline pc

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2014, 04:37:02 pm »
original plan was to make new PTS (DPOS) based on BitShares Vote codebase, this is why until now we don't have any milestones and deadline, if you want to hear raw realistic estimation, end of October, but if you want to hear more detailed plan - you should wait until Vote will be released.
Sometimes pushing development and taking additional risk does not give expected advantages.

+1

Glad to hear that
a) PTS will move to DPOS *eventually*, and
b) this is not rushed. I think it would be premature at this time.
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Offline testz

Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2014, 03:52:03 pm »
I3 's position on PTS mining is fuzzy .
On one hand ,they say POW is bad ...suck money ...
On the other hand ,they say, no rush to stop POW mining ... no rush.

Of course no rush ! I3 is not paying for the miner . :(
Can I3 please do the honer and pay for your miner yourself ?   :P Then you guys would understand the pain , just like when I pay my rent .

Probably you forgot the main purpose of PoW which is initial distribution.
Why I3 should pay for the PTS miners, if I3 give you ability to "mine" AGS for 199 days?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 04:01:59 pm by testz »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2014, 03:48:20 pm »
pow just like a Blood drawing machine

It's a pitty BTS vote  can't be used right now for all PTS holder to choose the future.


why not do this
1.snapshot aug21
2.embedded pts into bitshares x as a Bitasset
3.give back the rest pts to the ags donater(use pts) & pts keeper  by the shares percent
4.let people get pts in bitshares x  through the private key

then  we can trede  directly   pts-cny    pts-btsx     in  bitsharesx  instead of  btc38 or bter


PTS as a bitasset  in bitsharesx
we can trade pts-bts  pts-cny  in low fees   instead of  btc38  0.1%fee
direct  pts-bts   not  pts-cny  cny-bts  in btc38  with  fee 0.2%

pts  is just a liquid  stock rights ,why not  chang into a bitasset  in Bitsharesx market?

if PTS(dpos) a new client  there will be  101+ new  delegate   & payment  is a waste

pts  as a asset in bitshares X with 2m total num is equal to AGS
but if  pts is a single  dpos ,  when it burns after few years, maybe  pts1.5m, AGS sitll 2m, it's not fair, that's a Naked plunder to agser

PTS as a user issued asset in BTSX is a mistake. PTS was intended to be an agnostic vehicle for distribution, and there are many aspects of BTSX that would taint that objective. See here for the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

We need to do what Bytemaster suggested and what the community agreed to: use the August 21st snapshot to migrate to an independent DPOS chain. I still haven't heard from testz about a migration plan, milestone dates, required resources, or anything other than "ok, we'll do it later". Well, this is what happens when you kick the can... I also blame I3 for not giving this the tiny amount of resources that would be required to take the reference client and rebrand it. Really just a shame what is happening here.
the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

i never see this before
and  onebody  mention it  in Chinese community (i think  chinese are Big shareholders)

are you sure   this  vote stand for  all the pts holder's thought?

Stan posted something like 6 different threads over the past few months about the same thing. All of the discussions converged on the same conclusion - a standalone DPOS chain for PTS with no dilution. There is no other way forward. If we dilute the currency we will kill all confidence in the coin and the Bitshares ecosystem.

Offline sudo

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2014, 03:37:42 pm »
pow just like a Blood drawing machine

It's a pitty BTS vote  can't be used right now for all PTS holder to choose the future.


why not do this
1.snapshot aug21
2.embedded pts into bitshares x as a Bitasset
3.give back the rest pts to the ags donater(use pts) & pts keeper  by the shares percent
4.let people get pts in bitshares x  through the private key

then  we can trede  directly   pts-cny    pts-btsx     in  bitsharesx  instead of  btc38 or bter


PTS as a bitasset  in bitsharesx
we can trade pts-bts  pts-cny  in low fees   instead of  btc38  0.1%fee
direct  pts-bts   not  pts-cny  cny-bts  in btc38  with  fee 0.2%

pts  is just a liquid  stock rights ,why not  chang into a bitasset  in Bitsharesx market?

if PTS(dpos) a new client  there will be  101+ new  delegate   & payment  is a waste

pts  as a asset in bitshares X with 2m total num is equal to AGS
but if  pts is a single  dpos ,  when it burns after few years, maybe  pts1.5m, AGS sitll 2m, it's not fair, that's a Naked plunder to agser

PTS as a user issued asset in BTSX is a mistake. PTS was intended to be an agnostic vehicle for distribution, and there are many aspects of BTSX that would taint that objective. See here for the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

We need to do what Bytemaster suggested and what the community agreed to: use the August 21st snapshot to migrate to an independent DPOS chain. I still haven't heard from testz about a migration plan, milestone dates, required resources, or anything other than "ok, we'll do it later". Well, this is what happens when you kick the can... I also blame I3 for not giving this the tiny amount of resources that would be required to take the reference client and rebrand it. Really just a shame what is happening here.
the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

i never see this before
and  nobody  mention it  in Chinese community (i think  chinese are Big shareholders)

are you sure   this  vote stand for  all the pts holder's thought?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:54:49 pm by sudo »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2014, 03:23:43 pm »

You right I'm not economic expert, but for my opinion you write things which opposite one to another. Except whole economics around PTS and BitShares can you explain economics point in few words about why it's was bad when network works slow and miners dump small amount of PTS and when diffs retarget and miners dump huge amount of PTS, if in total for 4 month network produce planed amount of PTS.

It's all about sustainability.
In four month , I3's market plan will get more buyer for PTS , it will afford the dump over time without affecting the price or the confident in the market,which will lead to more buyers and more funds. It's like putting a bottle of water in a river.

But in a  hard time like this ,  dumping tons of PTS at one time will kill the market's confidence in PTS because it'll cause a chain reaction for withdrawing buy orders.  All the LTC holder that could've been attracted to PTS due to its stable price would bail .
It's like putting a bottle of water into a overflow fish tank.

You don't seem to understand the bigger picture.Let me do a simple one :

Will you give your land lord 1 year rent at once ? Why ? ( if you are a average income guy  )
If you are a company ,will you pay your supplier 1 year money at once instead of  divided into 12 months ?

You wouldn't ,would you ?

Tell me you think this dump is harmless when you decided you 're so kind to pay your landlord your 1 year rent tomorrow . It's all the same total amount ,really ,why not pay your landlord .

The analogy is flawed. When you pay your landlord you receive something in return. Paying the miners for an insecure, outdated, and inefficient algorithm is even WORSE than throwing the money in the garbage when DPOS is available. The arguments that the pro-mining crowd come up with, even here in the Bitshares community, are a reminder of the perverse incentives that PoW creates. At best they are misinformed. At worst they care more about the ROI on their mining hardware than the products and services we are helping to create.

Offline testz

Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2014, 03:20:07 pm »

We need to do what Bytemaster suggested and what the community agreed to: use the August 21st snapshot to migrate to an independent DPOS chain. I still haven't heard from testz about a migration plan, milestone dates, required resources, or anything other than "ok, we'll do it later". Well, this is what happens when you kick the can... I also blame I3 for not giving this the tiny amount of resources that would be required to take the reference client and rebrand it. Really just a shame what is happening here.

Unfortunately I'm not so familiar with bitshares toolkit, and original plan was to make new PTS (DPOS) based on BitShares Vote codebase, this is why until now we don't have any milestones and deadline, if you want to hear raw realistic estimation, end of October, but if you want to hear more detailed plan - you should wait until Vote will be released.
Sometimes pushing development and taking additional risk does not give expected advantages.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2014, 03:12:13 pm »
pow just like a Blood drawing machine

It's a pitty BTS vote  can't be used right now for all PTS holder to choose the future.


why not do this
1.snapshot aug21
2.embedded pts into bitshares x as a Bitasset
3.give back the rest pts to the ags donater(use pts) & pts keeper  by the shares percent
4.let people get pts in bitshares x  through the private key

then  we can trede  directly   pts-cny    pts-btsx     in  bitsharesx  instead of  btc38 or bter


PTS as a bitasset  in bitsharesx
we can trade pts-bts  pts-cny  in low fees   instead of  btc38  0.1%fee
direct  pts-bts   not  pts-cny  cny-bts  in btc38  with  fee 0.2%

pts  is just a liquid  stock rights ,why not  chang into a bitasset  in Bitsharesx market?

if PTS(dpos) a new client  there will be  101+ new  delegate   & payment  is a waste

pts  as a asset in bitshares X with 2m total num is equal to AGS
but if  pts is a single  dpos ,  when it burns after few years, maybe  pts1.5m, AGS sitll 2m, it's not fair, that's a Naked plunder to agser

PTS as a user issued asset in BTSX is a mistake. PTS was intended to be an agnostic vehicle for distribution, and there are many aspects of BTSX that would taint that objective. See here for the discussion: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6522.0

We need to do what Bytemaster suggested and what the community agreed to: use the August 21st snapshot to migrate to an independent DPOS chain. I still haven't heard from testz about a migration plan, milestone dates, required resources, or anything other than "ok, we'll do it later". Well, this is what happens when you kick the can... I also blame I3 for not giving this the tiny amount of resources that would be required to take the reference client and rebrand it. Really just a shame what is happening here.

Offline testz

Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2014, 02:41:11 pm »

You right I'm not economic expert, but for my opinion you write things which opposite one to another. Except whole economics around PTS and BitShares can you explain economics point in few words about why it's was bad when network works slow and miners dump small amount of PTS and when diffs retarget and miners dump huge amount of PTS, if in total for 4 month network produce planed amount of PTS.

Offline sudo

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Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2014, 12:18:06 pm »

But like I said , I do not blame Free Trade now,because he give PTS up last year. It's not his problem anymore.
The MMC user can blame him , but PTS user can blame I3.

OK, if you are looking who to blame about this fail, you can blame me, because I take responsibility to maintain PTS and doesn't do anything about this problem.

I explain my point in the forum few times and it's stay same as in beginning: PTS it's not copy/paste clone on which we can experiment and make hard forks every month, it's investment vehicle and regular investors generally don't have problems with PTS networks. Who has a problems it's miners and speculators, should we change the network to honor them, I think - no.

From beginning I3 plan that all 2 000 000 PTS will be mined within 1 year, but after everybody see how DPOS works, most of the forum users agree that we need to move PTS into DPOS, and we will do it, just give us more time to make it's smooth and efficient.

Believe me if we will start produce quick fixes and changing rules, our repute will lost more than this 34 000 PTS, mined and dumped in 3-5 days. Don't forget that you can't count this as pure lost because we have miners/community attention which can bring BitShares ecosystem more users and followers.

pow just like a Blood drawing machine

It's a pitty BTS vote  can't be used right now for all PTS holder to choose the future.


why not do this
1.snapshot aug21
2.embedded pts into bitshares x as a Bitasset
3.give back the rest pts to the ags donater(use pts) & pts keeper  by the shares percent
4.let people get pts in bitshares x  through the private key

then  we can trede  directly   pts-cny    pts-btsx     in  bitsharesx  instead of  btc38 or bter


PTS as a bitasset  in bitsharesx
we can trade pts-bts  pts-cny  in low fees   instead of  btc38  0.1%fee
direct  pts-bts   not  pts-cny  cny-bts  in btc38  with  fee 0.2%

pts  is just a liquid  stock rights ,why not  chang into a bitasset  in Bitsharesx market?

if PTS(dpos) a new client  there will be  101+ new  delegate   & payment  is a waste

pts  as a asset in bitshares X with 2m total num is equal to AGS
but if  pts is a single  dpos ,  when it burns after few years, maybe  pts1.5m, AGS sitll 2m, it's not fair, that's a Naked plunder to agser


Offline testz

Re: Bitshares PTS upgrade proposal
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 11:05:52 am »

But like I said , I do not blame Free Trade now,because he give PTS up last year. It's not his problem anymore.
The MMC user can blame him , but PTS user can blame I3.

OK, if you are looking who to blame about this fail, you can blame me, because I take responsibility to maintain PTS and doesn't do anything about this problem.

I explain my point in the forum few times and it's stay same as in beginning: PTS it's not copy/paste clone on which we can experiment and make hard forks every month, it's investment vehicle and regular investors generally don't have problems with PTS networks. Who has a problems it's miners and speculators, should we change the network to honor them, I think - no.

From beginning I3 plan that all 2 000 000 PTS will be mined within 1 year, but after everybody see how DPOS works, most of the forum users agree that we need to move PTS into DPOS, and we will do it, just give us more time to make it's smooth and efficient.

Believe me if we will start produce quick fixes and changing rules, our repute will lost more than this 34 000 PTS, mined and dumped in 3-5 days. Don't forget that you can't count this as pure lost because we have miners/community attention which can bring BitShares ecosystem more users and followers.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:29:39 am by testz »