Author Topic: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund  (Read 19419 times)

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Offline Permie

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Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2017, 05:25:28 pm »
How much should I be ready to pay for Bit20 in terms of USD? What will the price be when markets are efficient and price discovery has happened? Do you expect it to continue trading above feed price?

if we dont have liquidity, I want bother to buy into, regardless the price, what good does it do, when price rise but you cant sell. get the liquidity in order and you will have a viable market, I promise
I own a few BIT20 but I do not even bother to look at it, why should I, can buy cant sell for some time to come, takes days or weeks ..there is not a market, its monopoly, just monopoly is over after a few hours, its sad, because I love the idea a lot
+5% +5% +5%

JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
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Offline MarkoPaasila

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2017, 10:21:13 am »
If the price rises 300% per year on average, and you bought at 2 x feed price, you will need to wait approximately 8 months, and you can force settle your Bit20 to receive as much BTS as you once invested. You can also put up a sell order at the same premium you paid. I'm sure someone will pick it up. I will buy it from you if you sell it at 1.5 x price feed.

How much should I be ready to pay for Bit20 in terms of USD? What will the price be when markets are efficient and price discovery has happened? Do you expect it to continue trading above feed price?

if we dont have liquidity, I want bother to buy into, regardless the price, what good does it do, when price rise but you cant sell. get the liquidity in order and you will have a viable market, I promise
I own a few BIT20 but I do not even bother to look at it, why should I, can buy cant sell for some time to come, takes days or weeks ..there is not a market, its monopoly, just monopoly is over after a few hours, its sad, because I love the idea a lot

Offline mea123

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Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2017, 01:25:38 pm »
MarkoPaasila
If the price rises 300% per year on average, and you bought at 2 x feed price, you will need to wait approximately 8 months, and you can force settle your Bit20 to receive as much BTS as you once invested.
You can also put up a sell order at the same premium you paid. I'm sure someone will pick it up. I will buy it from you if you sell it at 1.5 x price feed.




I dont think your post is funny, this is a real issue, its not about what you would buy when get it cheap, DEX this is not a used car-dealership..this supposed to be a market where one invest and risk his hard earned money, I would rather go to poloniex and buy all 20 individually  and sell for market price, before I have to sell for much less because I need money or need cash to buy e.g. Dash, what about that idea?
-----------
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 02:22:25 pm by mea123 »

Offline yvv

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Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2017, 03:56:16 pm »

I dont think your post is funny, this is a real issue, its not about what you would buy when get it cheap, DEX this is not a used car-dealership..this supposed to be a market where one invest and risk his hard earned money, I would rather go to poloniex and buy all 20 individually  and sell for market price, before I have to sell for much less because I need money or need cash to buy e.g. Dash, what about that idea?
-----------

You definitely don't want to invest a significant amount in bit20 at this point. Nevertheless, bit20 is a well thought concept which is implemented with care, and it is ok to diversify you portfolio by investing a fraction in it. Hopefully, a lot of such small investments will spin up liquidity.

Offline MarkoPaasila

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2017, 08:10:50 am »
I have buy orders on the BTWTY:bitUSD market. I will gradually try to buy €3k worth of BTWTY

MarkoPaasila
If the price rises 300% per year on average, and you bought at 2 x feed price, you will need to wait approximately 8 months, and you can force settle your Bit20 to receive as much BTS as you once invested.
You can also put up a sell order at the same premium you paid. I'm sure someone will pick it up. I will buy it from you if you sell it at 1.5 x price feed.




I dont think your post is funny, this is a real issue, its not about what you would buy when get it cheap, DEX this is not a used car-dealership..this supposed to be a market where one invest and risk his hard earned money, I would rather go to poloniex and buy all 20 individually  and sell for market price, before I have to sell for much less because I need money or need cash to buy e.g. Dash, what about that idea?
-----------

Offline JonnyB

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Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2017, 09:11:21 am »
Can bit20 be force settled yet?
When it launched it couldn't be has that changed.

I don't see how it can keep its peg unless you have the ability to force settle?
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
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Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2017, 06:54:29 pm »
How much should I be ready to pay for Bit20 in terms of USD? What will the price be when markets are efficient and price discovery has happened? Do you expect it to continue trading above feed price?

The index is performing amazingly well ! He is about to reach a rise of 1000% since July 2015.
I expect it to continue trading above the feed price until it stops performing that well. Even with a lower performance, I suspect we will never see the market around the price feed.
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 07:02:35 pm »
How much should I be ready to pay for Bit20 in terms of USD? What will the price be when markets are efficient and price discovery has happened? Do you expect it to continue trading above feed price?

if we dont have liquidity, I want bother to buy into, regardless the price, what good does it do, when price rise but you cant sell. get the liquidity in order and you will have a viable market, I promise
I own a few BIT20 but I do not even bother to look at it, why should I, can buy cant sell for some time to come, takes days or weeks ..there is not a market, its monopoly, just monopoly is over after a few hours, its sad, because I love the idea a lot

So you are advising people to not trade BTWTY because there is not liquidity and telling me "get the liquidity in order and you will have a viable market".

I agree with you, with liquidity I will have a viable market. This is what I am trying to do building awareness around Bit20

I'm not a BTWTY seller, I'm the market creator.

You can buy BTWTY and then sell them whenever you want ! I can see right now plenty of people buying and bots active on the market. In the case there is no buyers above the price feed, you can trigger a force settle and your BTWTY will be automatically sold.
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2017, 07:07:38 pm »
If the price rises 300% per year on average, and you bought at 2 x feed price, you will need to wait approximately 8 months, and you can force settle your Bit20 to receive as much BTS as you once invested. You can also put up a sell order at the same premium you paid. I'm sure someone will pick it up. I will buy it from you if you sell it at 1.5 x price feed.

How much should I be ready to pay for Bit20 in terms of USD? What will the price be when markets are efficient and price discovery has happened? Do you expect it to continue trading above feed price?

if we dont have liquidity, I want bother to buy into, regardless the price, what good does it do, when price rise but you cant sell. get the liquidity in order and you will have a viable market, I promise
I own a few BIT20 but I do not even bother to look at it, why should I, can buy cant sell for some time to come, takes days or weeks ..there is not a market, its monopoly, just monopoly is over after a few hours, its sad, because I love the idea a lot

Exactly !  +5% +5% +5%
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2017, 07:21:11 pm »
MarkoPaasila
If the price rises 300% per year on average, and you bought at 2 x feed price, you will need to wait approximately 8 months, and you can force settle your Bit20 to receive as much BTS as you once invested.
You can also put up a sell order at the same premium you paid. I'm sure someone will pick it up. I will buy it from you if you sell it at 1.5 x price feed.




I dont think your post is funny, this is a real issue, its not about what you would buy when get it cheap, DEX this is not a used car-dealership..this supposed to be a market where one invest and risk his hard earned money, I would rather go to poloniex and buy all 20 individually  and sell for market price, before I have to sell for much less because I need money or need cash to buy e.g. Dash, what about that idea?
-----------

You could build your portfolio copying BTWTY and you would be able to buy and sell it at the price feed (each coin at the time). It would be a lot of work but it would work perfectly. You will also have to rebuild your portfolio every month when I do the revision. That's exactly why we have created BTWTY, to avoid this painful experience so people can buy it and forget about it as long as they want.

The option of buying it at a premium in the DEX and sell it later profit with hopefully the same of higher premium is the good one in my opinion. I now it's frustrating not knowing which will be the long-term premium BTWTY. Nobody can predict these things. It would be like guessing the price of BTC in 6 month (Jonathan Bahai would tell you it will be at 5000$ but who knows if he's right).

I have seen people buying BTWTY almost at the price feed without premium. Look at the chart on the 2nd of April ;)

This is a funny market, volatile and loaded with opportunities to make money. You just have to grab them. I have been trading this market and it's a lot of fun. I don't keep the BTWTY I buy because my goal is to grow the market activity.

Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2017, 07:23:22 pm »
I have buy orders on the BTWTY:bitUSD market. I will gradually try to buy €3k worth of BTWTY

MarkoPaasila
If the price rises 300% per year on average, and you bought at 2 x feed price, you will need to wait approximately 8 months, and you can force settle your Bit20 to receive as much BTS as you once invested.
You can also put up a sell order at the same premium you paid. I'm sure someone will pick it up. I will buy it from you if you sell it at 1.5 x price feed.




I dont think your post is funny, this is a real issue, its not about what you would buy when get it cheap, DEX this is not a used car-dealership..this supposed to be a market where one invest and risk his hard earned money, I would rather go to poloniex and buy all 20 individually  and sell for market price, before I have to sell for much less because I need money or need cash to buy e.g. Dash, what about that idea?
-----------

I wish you a low premium and a lot of fun !
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2017, 07:28:04 pm »
Can bit20 be force settled yet?
When it launched it couldn't be has that changed.

I don't see how it can keep its peg unless you have the ability to force settle?

Hi Jonny, yes you can force settle! It has been changed and announced in this thread in February ;)

Market settings changes

Hello dear traders and investors,

Bit20 has been evolving nicely since it's inception in December 2016. We are happy to observe that traders are buying and selling much higher than the "theoric" index price.

Why is that ?

Well, simply because they saw what Bit20 has performed very well in the last 18 months and deduce they can buy it even with a 50% premium, it's still a good investment with lots of potentials.

This market has been created with some very specific settings. These settings have been adjusted before the market was born.
Now that we have seen the price stabilising around 140% of the theoric asset price, we can adjust the market settings to fit better its trading environment.

2 changes:

The MSSR: When a shorter have its collateral falling below 175% of the price feed, a margin call will happen. A buy order will be automatically created in the market to buy back its undercollateralized asset(s).
This process guarantee that all smartcoins on the BitShares decentralised exchange are always well collateralised.

The MSSR is set at 110% at the moment. This would be good for gold or dollars because they are traded close to the price feed. No need then to buy back much higher.

In our Bit20 market, the asset is traded around 140% of the price feed. A buy back at 110% wouldn't be bought anytime soon. We will increase this value progressively until it reaches a value where it can be bought. It will be somewhere between 120% and 140%

What does it change for you concretely?

Really not much.

For the buyer, nothing at all.

For the shorter, you still can borrow BTWTY with the usual 175% collateral, the only difference is the price of the margin call if your collateral falls under the limit. If you are aware of what you do when you short BTWTY, that limit shouldn't be reached. If it is, the price you will be margin call will probably be around the one you sold and maybe cheaper, the spread is still wide. We won't raise this value until the point it is discouraging shorters, our goal is to incentive as many as possible!

Second change. After receiving some requests, we will enable the force settlement setting.
This option allows anyone with BTWTYs to force the market to buy the asset(s) they own at the price feed. The fact that this market is traded much higher than the theoric price feed make this option irrelevant because it's  easy to sell at a better price than the price feed. 

In order to let everyone consider this information, we will wait for 48h before operating any change.

Happy trading!
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2017, 04:50:54 pm »


On the 21st day of every month, Bit20 runs an algorithm that creates its new composition. By this process, it always includes the most promising coins. Some coins appear in the index and others disappear. Some of them gain weight and other lose some of it. This new composition swap with the previous one without any disturbance of the index price.

We have run this operation yesterday. Here is the new composition of the Bit20 Index Fund:

BTC / 20065294344 USD / 10 % / 0.87291578470716 coins / 1232.16 USD
ETH / 4514306085 USD / 10 % / 21.657976132206 coins / 49.6617 USD
LTC / 521706945 USD / 10 % / 104.60319704396 coins / 10.2824 USD
DASH / 518522510 USD / 10 % / 15.024283279737 coins / 71.5889 USD
ETC / 299964083 USD / 10 % / 325.8380683335 coins / 3.30094 USD
XMR / 284572267 USD / 9.7381502379009 % / 52.737191583632 coins / 19.8609 USD
XEM / 258080400 USD / 8.8315904257022 % / 33125.76061711 coins / 0.0286756 USD
REP / 124573900 USD / 4.2629570573061 % / 40.487040754245 coins / 11.3249 USD
MAID / 96360175 USD / 3.2974747363573 % / 1665.6825428515 coins / 0.212926 USD
PIVX / 90309478 USD / 3.0904180296332 % / 195.32638948038 coins / 1.70175 USD
GNT / 82415740 USD / 2.8202918947396 % / 3018.1248562256 coins / 0.100507 USD
ZEC / 76101209 USD / 2.6042067076336 % / 4.1610326198034 coins / 67.3153 USD
DCR / 67929548 USD / 2.3245699624577 % / 17.367134575901 coins / 14.3964 USD
STRAT / 66212668 USD / 2.2658178023941 % / 362.00496263059 coins / 0.673209 USD
BCC / 61536964 USD / 2.1058137777575 % / 22.487853870314 coins / 10.0719 USD
FCT / 57496920 USD / 1.9675622332396 % / 32.217448851248 coins / 6.56866 USD
STEEM / 52623698 USD / 1.8007990820761 % / 864.60149456975 coins / 0.224021 USD
GAME / 48655793 USD / 1.6650161562589 % / 228.63519536375 coins / 0.783276 USD
DOGE / 48023587 USD / 1.6433818730794 % / 401328.55895373 coins / 0.000440431 USD
WAVES / 46228400 USD / 1.5819500234637 % / 368.06400685678 coins / 0.462284 USD

The composition is sent in the BitShares Blockchain so the witnesses can read it and publish the price in the decentralised exchange. This system guarantees decentralisation and prevent any market manipulation. Here it is:
http://cryptofresh.com/u/bittwenty.feed

You will find on the website the composition with the updated price of each coin and the total value of the index



Next, a glance at the state of the market since its creation on the BitShares Decentralised Exchange



Don't hesitate anymore and start trading on the Bit20 market !!!





Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline 天籁

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Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2017, 09:57:32 am »


On the 21st day of every month, Bit20 runs an algorithm that creates its new composition. By this process, it always includes the most promising coins. Some coins appear in the index and others disappear. Some of them gain weight and other lose some of it. This new composition swap with the previous one without any disturbance of the index price.

We have run this operation yesterday. Here is the new composition of the Bit20 Index Fund:

BTC / 20065294344 USD / 10 % / 0.87291578470716 coins / 1232.16 USD
ETH / 4514306085 USD / 10 % / 21.657976132206 coins / 49.6617 USD
LTC / 521706945 USD / 10 % / 104.60319704396 coins / 10.2824 USD
DASH / 518522510 USD / 10 % / 15.024283279737 coins / 71.5889 USD
ETC / 299964083 USD / 10 % / 325.8380683335 coins / 3.30094 USD
XMR / 284572267 USD / 9.7381502379009 % / 52.737191583632 coins / 19.8609 USD
XEM / 258080400 USD / 8.8315904257022 % / 33125.76061711 coins / 0.0286756 USD
REP / 124573900 USD / 4.2629570573061 % / 40.487040754245 coins / 11.3249 USD
MAID / 96360175 USD / 3.2974747363573 % / 1665.6825428515 coins / 0.212926 USD
PIVX / 90309478 USD / 3.0904180296332 % / 195.32638948038 coins / 1.70175 USD
GNT / 82415740 USD / 2.8202918947396 % / 3018.1248562256 coins / 0.100507 USD
ZEC / 76101209 USD / 2.6042067076336 % / 4.1610326198034 coins / 67.3153 USD
DCR / 67929548 USD / 2.3245699624577 % / 17.367134575901 coins / 14.3964 USD
STRAT / 66212668 USD / 2.2658178023941 % / 362.00496263059 coins / 0.673209 USD
BCC / 61536964 USD / 2.1058137777575 % / 22.487853870314 coins / 10.0719 USD
FCT / 57496920 USD / 1.9675622332396 % / 32.217448851248 coins / 6.56866 USD
STEEM / 52623698 USD / 1.8007990820761 % / 864.60149456975 coins / 0.224021 USD
GAME / 48655793 USD / 1.6650161562589 % / 228.63519536375 coins / 0.783276 USD
DOGE / 48023587 USD / 1.6433818730794 % / 401328.55895373 coins / 0.000440431 USD
WAVES / 46228400 USD / 1.5819500234637 % / 368.06400685678 coins / 0.462284 USD

The composition is sent in the BitShares Blockchain so the witnesses can read it and publish the price in the decentralised exchange. This system guarantees decentralisation and prevent any market manipulation. Here it is:
http://cryptofresh.com/u/bittwenty.feed

You will find on the website the composition with the updated price of each coin and the total value of the index



Next, a glance at the state of the market since its creation on the BitShares Decentralised Exchange



Don't hesitate anymore and start trading on the Bit20 market !!!






I strongly suggest not include BTS in the Bit20 index forever, otherwise no one will short Bit20. [member=32961]EstefanTT[/member] and you should announce In the website.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 10:14:57 am by 天籁 »

Offline EstefanTT

Re: Bit20 - The cryptocurrency index fund
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2017, 04:19:05 pm »


On the 21st day of every month ...


I strongly suggest not include BTS in the Bit20 index forever, otherwise no one will short Bit20. [member=32961]EstefanTT[/member] and you should announce In the website.

There is already a lot of markets trading against BTWTY. Part of these coins will be in the index itself but it's not a problem. The coins in the index can't have a big impact on it, the maximum you could have is 10% weight in the index.

If we would remove BTS from the index, we should also remove these coins :

BTWTY : BTS
BTWTY : OPEN.ETH
BTWTY : OPEN.STEEM
BTWTY : OPEN.BTC
BTWTY : OPEN.DASH

BTS price can indeed influence slightly BTWTY, so does the others coins. But in any case, this effect will be substantial.

It's important to keep BTWTY as "pure" as possible. Any rules added to it increase its complexity. So far, I find it perfect just as it is.

The top 20 blockchain projects. We only remove centralised entities (Ripple) and derivatives (cryptocurrencies copies of fiat, metals, ..).
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)