Author Topic: Why is the price of bitShares so low?  (Read 3466 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline townsend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Thank you guys!! For this very precise and informal education on these critical points.

Quote
There are other platforms where users can create tokens for a one-time fee and if bitshares requires "rent" then users will quickly migrate their business elsewhere. Bitshares is super efficient and we can let people use the blockchain for super cheap (and still profit).

SmartCoins are more unique and I think you'll like this: They reduce the supply of spendable bitshares.

There is 'rent' in a way.. you need to keep your fee pool filled with BTS no matter what asset you have. Any assets pairing with BTS are paying fees to the network as well.

To me, BTC (bitcoin) is a crazy bad investment right now, blockchain at capacity, slow and inefficient, terrible governance and toxic community

And... thanks for taking the time to explain all this to me.

Conclusion: With SO many other assets dependent on the bitShares blockchain, bitShares will certainly be around for a long LONG time. And... now being sold at the  bargain price of 230 per dollar, it's the IDEAL time to start accumulating bitShares.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 09:09:37 pm by townsend »

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Yes! I found the Chronos video, "Bitshares Inflation Rate VERY informative.

Quote from: KenMonkey
Peerplays has been good for BitShares. It's only tradable on our exchange rn and all BTS holders (back in October) will get some Peerplays as a nod to BitShares tech playing a central role. Pretty cool. So I get some 100 Peerplays. Can't say no to that.
Steem did us no such favors and some are bitter  *cough* liljay *cough*. Lol. Devs and even Dan are under no obligation. BitShares can stand on it's own.

I know I'm just a newbie here but, looking at this with fresh eyes, that's the problem right there! bitShares allows tokens which become coins in their own right, to be created for a one-time flat fee. What? Like $30. Then using the bitShares technology, they go on their merry way and reap all the profits. Tokens and assets based on bitShares need to pay rent, (fees). Every month, some of these new assets need to be returned to bitShares, where they can be sold and placed into the Reserve Pool. The more valuable the assets become, the more money flows back to Reserve Pool. Its' only fair. Then there would be plenty of income, for workers, witnesses and further development.... AND... suddenly bitShares would regain all it's lost respect.

PS: Of course, in such a scenario, the amount of such a monthly fee could not be based on the Available Tokens but rather would need to be based on the average Market Cap for the past month. (Ie: moving average.) Also... my apologies if I've been too presumptuous in posting such a suggestion, as I admit, my understanding of the existing architecture is very limited and this may not even be possible.

There is 'rent' in a way.. you need to keep your fee pool filled with BTS no matter what asset you have. Any assets pairing with BTS are paying fees to the network as well.

The idea though is that once you have one trader in Bitshares trading one particular asset it is anticipated they will trade others, with that other UIA owners make money, and BTS network as a whole does as well. It's the network effect. At least, that is the general idea. I have seen this happen in someone cases, and not in others. I saw a number of new Peerplays holders go on to try trading Gold and Silver here. Others became aware of other ICOs also as a result and participated in those. Effectively Peerplays brought a lot of fees and other activity that enriched the whole bitshares network. The expectation is that others might do the same, but it rarely happens only because of law of averages when it comes to success and failure in startups and the low barrier to entry making it easy for amateurs as well... which raises those averages of failure much higher.

An ongoing monthly fee like you suggest introduces a lot of complications as well.. the fee pool generally does this job well enough and is based on trade volume.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
www.Peerplays.com | Decentralized Gaming Built with Graphene - Now with BookiePro and Sweeps!
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Offline KenMonkey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: kmnk
This is a case of short term vs long-term thinking.

There are other platforms where users can create tokens for a one-time fee and if bitshares requires "rent" then users will quickly migrate their business elsewhere. It's important in a market to remain open and do things as cheaply as possible. As Sam Walton said "Give customers what they want - and a little more." Bitshares is super efficient and we can let people use the blockchain for super cheap (and still profit). We're happy with the creation, transfer, and trading fees UIAs generate, not to mention user interest and blockchain utility.

Important also to realize that there are 2 types of assets on the bitshares blockchain (besides the core token). UIAs (user issued assets) and SmartCoins. UIAs can be created in a finite amount (1-1,000,000,000), flexible trade fees, and any other parameter you could care to name. Basically UIAs are like assets issued on NXT or wavves or counterparty or ardor or antshares or whatever the fuck else.

SmartCoins are more unique and I think you'll like this: They reduce the supply of spendable bitshares. For example, bitCNY can only be created when someone thinks that Bitshares will increase in value compared to this asset and decides to create a special smart contract. This locks up ~3x the value in bitshares to create one bitCNY. This "smart contract" can be created in the wallet by clicking on "borrow bitCNY".
I know this opens up a whole slew of new questions like
"what happens if the value of collateral drops below the value of bitCNY?"
"how is the price of bitCNY established and maintained?"
There are great answers to these questions, this is not the place. Bitshares has a heckuva learning curve.

Basically you can borrow and sell USD and CNY (and gold and others) with no interest and no counterparty (nobody holds the bitUSD but you). So along with influence over blockchain decisions, this is another reason BTS will continue to grow in value.

Just... hold onto your seat for a minute, there is a lot of excitement going on right now in blockchain world, possibly approaching a maddness phase. The wheat and the chaff are going to be separated. To me, BTC is a crazy bad investment right now, blockchain at capacity, slow and inefficient, terrible governance and toxic community. BTS will never face those problems but crazy will always have its day.

Offline townsend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Yes! I found the Chronos video, "Bitshares Inflation Rate VERY informative.

Quote from: KenMonkey
Peerplays has been good for BitShares. It's only tradable on our exchange rn and all BTS holders (back in October) will get some Peerplays as a nod to BitShares tech playing a central role. Pretty cool. So I get some 100 Peerplays. Can't say no to that.
Steem did us no such favors and some are bitter  *cough* liljay *cough*. Lol. Devs and even Dan are under no obligation. BitShares can stand on it's own.

I know I'm just a newbie here but, looking at this with fresh eyes, that's the problem right there! bitShares allows tokens which become coins in their own right, to be created for a one-time flat fee. What? Like $30. Then using the bitShares technology, they go on their merry way and reap all the profits. Tokens and assets based on bitShares need to pay rent, (fees). Every month, some of these new assets need to be returned to bitShares, where they can be sold and placed into the Reserve Pool. The more valuable the assets become, the more money flows back to Reserve Pool. Its' only fair. Then there would be plenty of income, for workers, witnesses and further development.... AND... suddenly bitShares would regain all it's lost respect.

PS: Of course, in such a scenario, the amount of such a monthly fee could not be based on the Available Tokens but rather would need to be based on the average Market Cap for the past month. (Ie: moving average.) Also... my apologies if I've been too presumptuous in posting such a suggestion, as I admit, my understanding of the existing architecture is very limited and this may not even be possible.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 08:36:32 pm by townsend »

Offline Chronos

But I have one BIG concern. Being a "Poof of Stake" coin could someone point me to a video or white paper that describers the current mechanism for current and future coin creation. I mean... with 2.5 billion coins already in circulation, I don't think any more are needed.
Great question. Did you see the Chronos Crypto video on the Bitshares inflation rate? It outlines precisely what makes the supply go up (or down). In a nutshell, it's witnesses and workers that increase supply, and fees bring it down. Here's a direct link: https://youtu.be/ohx46JlRzjc

We need witnesses to secure the network, so that's a fixed cost for shareholders. Workers are optional. Fees are really low right now, so the supply is still gradually growing.

Offline KenMonkey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: kmnk
Peerplays has been good for BitShares. It's only tradable on our exchange rn and all BTS holders (back in October) will get some Peerplays as a nod to BitShares tech playing a central role. Pretty cool. So I get some 100 Peerplays. Can't say no to that.
Steem did us no such favors and some are bitter  *cough* liljay *cough*. Lol. Devs and even Dan are under no obligation. BitShares can stand on it's own.

As for the supply increase, I was really concerned about that too. The hard cap on supply is ~3.7b but we will never reach that as some fees get burned. Other fees get recycled into the reserve supply. I keep saying we should have a chart showing supply over time but I cannot find one. There is this

https://cryptofresh.com/reserve 

Basically if you flip the chart upside down that shows the supply increase. The BTS supply change is not fixed but dependent on workers, witnesses, and fees being returned and burned. We could easily see a supply reduction if enough fees are being paid.

Like Bitcoin, block-producers are the main source of new supply. But they compete not to buy the most equipment and see who can burn the planet the fastest but on who can do it for the cheapest rate! Some witnesses only want a 3% pay rate. Good stuff.

Offline townsend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Thanks everyone!! I appreciate the candid history lesson... and all your feedback. I'm sure this thread will be of interest to other Newbie's. I've been spending a LOT of time going through both old and new videos trying to get up to speed. I especially enjoyed the BitShares 101 series from BitShares TV.

1- On one hand I see bitShares at it's current price an amazing bargain with a top rate future. But I have one BIG concern. Being a "Poof of Stake" coin could someone point me to a video or white paper that describers the current mechanism for current and future coin creation. I mean... with 2.5 billion coins already in circulation, I don't think any more are needed.

2- THEN... I see all these other coins or tokens based on bitShares with a MUCH higher valuation. For instance I just heard that PeerPlays is based on bitShares, and it's current value has popped up to $41.60.  Somehow this does not seem fair. Shouldn't there be some kind of reciprocal value passed back to bitShares, instead of what I believe is a fix cost for the token creators.


Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Bottom line:  An excellent product was produced and delivered to the shareholders, as you have observed.

Cryptonomex worked another whole year after the funds ran out on the sweat equity of its developers to produce that stable product on which others are now building.

You can read the history of what really happened, and the rationale behind every decision that was made in this series for which the last chapter has yet to be written.

The Origin of BitShares Rides Again (Parts 1-10)
Part 11 - It Is Very Cold in Space
Part 12 - Never Let Them See You Sweat
Part 13 - Cryptonomex Rears Its Head
Part 14 - The Jump to Light Speed
Part 15 - Blockchain Platform Surfing
Part 16 - Developer Freedom Trumps User Convenience
Part 17 - The Fourth Guy Fawkes Day in BitShares History


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline lil_jay890

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
    • View Profile
Basically cnx, the creator of bitshares using investor cash, pumped the coin based on a future "sharedrop" theory.  They then created a new chain, steem, using bts tech. Unfortunately, they immediately abandoned the "sharedrop" idea once they found out they would have to be the ones to sharedrop.  They were even dumping shares as they were pumping the "buy because of share drops, the price is a bargain!".  This caused many remaining investors to leave.

The Chinese investors were a big part of bts a year or two ago, but they dumped when Dan larimer took control of the coin and forced inflating the supply to 2.5 billion (the merger).  Bts was just taking off, but this merger was the beginning of a long downtrend vs almost all currencies.

Long story short, the original investors that invested because of cnx are gone. Many invested what they had left in steem, where they were pumped and dumped again. The silver lining of all this is that bts has a fresh start. The cloud of centralization by Dan or cnx no longer lingers over bts.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
I've was VERY impressed with the recent Chronos Crypto videos on youTube. In fact, as a programmer, I'm blown away by all the intricate functionally and possibilities of bitShares. Far and above any other crypto I seen. Then there is all this existing technology already based on bitShares. Ie: OpenLedger. So... I start buying some bitShares. They're they're like 2300 per dollar.

I don't understand... why are bitShares so cheap? Yes, the Available Supply is 2 1/2 billion. What's going on there? And with all the adjunct platforms based on bitShares, why's the Market Cap and Daily Volume so low?

It seems like bitShares has already accomplished everything Ethereum plans on doing, all without getting bogged down with a procedural language. I must be missing something. Why isn't bitShares more popular?

Why aren't Tesla cars more popular with the buggy whip industry?

Here is Dan's keynote speech to the buggy whip industry at the major Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas, 2014.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U44MujtVj00

Naturally, they all loved the message and flocked to get on board.

 8)

In hind sight, it might have been better to not take such a frontal assault on the industry.  But it was fun at the time.



There were, of course, lots of other controversies along the way - but introducing oneself to your industry as an existential threat is probably something only Donald Trump should try.


« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:44:16 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline KenMonkey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: kmnk
I've was VERY impressed with the recent Chronos Crypto videos on youTube. In fact, as a programmer, I'm blown away by all the intricate functionally and possibilities of bitShares. Far and above any other crypto I seen. Then there is all this existing technology already based on bitShares. Ie: OpenLedger. So... I start buying some bitShares. They're they're like 2300 per dollar.

I don't understand... why are bitShares so cheap? Yes, the Available Supply is 2 1/2 billion. What's going on there? And with all the adjunct platforms based on bitShares, why's the Market Cap and Daily Volume so low?

It seems like bitShares has already accomplished everything Ethereum plans on doing, all without getting bogged down with a procedural language. I must be missing something. Why isn't bitShares more popular?

haha so maybe the chronos videos are a good community investment. :)  Finally people are asking the right questions.

The main reasons BTS is so cheap: bad marketing, the "bitmarmot" saga of Preston J Byrne (asshole), supply increase (now over)

I speak crypto venture capital people here in London and they're pumped about ethereum but then I mention BTS and they're like "oh wasn't that some scam... "
LOL! reminds me of how people reacted at the start of bitcoin which also had terrible press, but eventually the function, utility, and community wins through. 

Offline Chronos

Hi, glad you're enjoying the videos!

To answer your question, well, it's complicated. You might learn more by digging through the histories in these forums. Basically, Bitshares passed through a bit of a civil war, or what you might call a toxic environment. There was a controversial "merger" that massively inflated the supply over two years (roughly from 2014 to 2016), and we've dealt with a few broken promises. A lot of people have left the community, but those who remain are really committed to Bitshares, and see a bright future for it.

I agree, the tech is quite amazing. Welcome to the forums!  :)

unreadPostsSinceLastVisit

  • Guest
it's a long, contentious story.

Offline townsend

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
I've was VERY impressed with the recent Chronos Crypto videos on youTube. In fact, as a programmer, I'm blown away by all the intricate functionally and possibilities of bitShares. Far and above any other crypto I seen. Then there is all this existing technology already based on bitShares. Ie: OpenLedger. So... I start buying some bitShares. They're they're like 2300 per dollar.

I don't understand... why are bitShares so cheap? Yes, the Available Supply is 2 1/2 billion. What's going on there? And with all the adjunct platforms based on bitShares, why's the Market Cap and Daily Volume so low?

It seems like bitShares has already accomplished everything Ethereum plans on doing, all without getting bogged down with a procedural language. I must be missing something. Why isn't bitShares more popular?