Author Topic: how about to raise block reward?  (Read 37316 times)

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Offline mf-tzo

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I am sure now the service will be improved...lol..If nothing changes to the service provided and feeds are wrong again I hope that you guys consider to go back to the 1.5bts and fire some bad witnesses..

Offline xeroc

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BitShares now pays 3BTS (2x increase from previous 1.5BTS) per created block!
http://steem.link/TfdDV

Offline Brekyrself

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There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!
Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

I think @Brekyrself was referring to adding additional network-issued MPAs and expecting/requiring witnesses to provide feeds for those assets in order to help justify higher pay. 

I like this idea in theory.  But unfortunately there isn't enough focus on liquidity, so I'm not confident we're making enough progress on that front to expect additional MPAs will ever become viable.


Exactly this, have stocks themselves be the same concept as BitAssets (BitUSD, BitEuro, Etc...).  There has to be a wide variety of proper price feeds all over the internet?

Sure liquidity would hurt short term but this would provide another angle for traders besides Forex.

Offline xeroc

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There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!
Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

I think @Brekyrself was referring to adding additional network-issued MPAs and expecting/requiring witnesses to provide feeds for those assets in order to help justify higher pay. 

I like this idea in theory.  But unfortunately there isn't enough focus on liquidity, so I'm not confident we're making enough progress on that front to expect additional MPAs will ever become viable.
And thats why it is a business opportunity. Someone willing to work on providing liquidity for his own market pegged asset can make a profit from trading fees ... committee owned mpas dont have a market fee and no one that benefits from marketing them (except for outside fees)

It could make sense (some day in the future) to set a trading fee for mpas aswell and use that money for marketing those mpas .. but imho if we did this today, we'd probably kilm the volume we have or at least make the spread even bigger :(

Offline tbone

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There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!
Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

I think @Brekyrself was referring to adding additional network-issued MPAs and expecting/requiring witnesses to provide feeds for those assets in order to help justify higher pay. 

I like this idea in theory.  But unfortunately there isn't enough focus on liquidity, so I'm not confident we're making enough progress on that front to expect additional MPAs will ever become viable.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:03:31 pm by tbone »

Offline xeroc

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There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!
Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

Offline Brekyrself

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There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!

Offline Chronos

Thank you, Bitcrab, for creating the workers to collect voter sentiment on this issue, paying the fees at your own expense. We appreciate it.

Offline Thom

First of all, my apologies if I have offended anyone. I tend to get rather passionate, especially when I feel the discussion is sequestered. It's not really, but participation is difficult on Telegram as I said. IMO I believe all of the details discussed on Telegram should be done more here rather than there

Sorry @Thom I didn't know you were expecting a reply from me. You had stated your case, and I stated mine, so I figured there was no sense in me spending any more time in the discussion. Sorry man, was not trying to avoid you or anything, have just been very busy.

Second, to @kenCode, please don't misunderstand what I've said as any disrespect for you. My language may not have adequately conveyed that. We do differ on our perspective on this issue, and I wish you had the desire to discuss it more here, but I understand you're very busy and apparently you find Telegram more efficient for managing your time. You're right, in that we both have presented our perspectives, and it's clear we differ on this issue. I just wished you explained your position better here concerning the expenses, labor and profit running a witness. As I said, I don't see it as a viable business anywhere but the poorest of economies. Nuf said, no need to repeat myself.

Thanks @Thom for what you have done as witness, but anyway please calm down.
many discussion happened in Telegram as it is an instand messenger so many people like the convenience, however it is just discussion, to make decision we always need open discussion and voting.
I have also considered 5BTS or 8BTS as an option, after some open discussion and the poll I decided to propose 4BTS. then I found many shareholder prefer 3BTS, I think it is good to let the community select from no change, 3BTS and 4BTS by voting, that's what had happened.
now 3BTS get most support, however we still have 9 days for voting, 4BTS option still has chance to win. if you believe 4BTS is better, you can try to talk with proxies to get support from them.

Third, thank you @bitcrab for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated. I also appreciate your efforts to wrangle this discussion into something productive that will help BitShares to move forward and not gradually fade away. It's not easy to achieve a consensus and I see you as being right in the middle of bridging the gap between the east and west. We both want BitShares to be successful even if our motivations and cultural perspectives differ. As for 3, 4, or whatever witness pay option is best, I will let xeroc make that decision for me. I believe 3 will be a good first step, and we can see what that achieves.

I like what I've seen @tbone contribute to this issue as well, and think increasing witness pay is not adequate alone. If the consensus is to increase witness involvement and quality, we also need to establish some standards to measure witness performance and to quality new witnesses prior to them being voted in. Voter apathy is an obstacle for both adding new witnesses as well as removing them, so pre-qualification would be one way to address that problem.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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Thanks @Thom for what you have done as witness, but anyway please calm down.
many discussion happened in Telegram as it is an instand messenger so many people like the convenience, however it is just discussion, to make decision we always need open discussion and voting.
I have also considered 5BTS or 8BTS as an option, after some open discussion and the poll I decided to propose 4BTS. then I found many shareholder prefer 3BTS, I think it is good to let the community select from no change, 3BTS and 4BTS by voting, that's what had happened.
now 3BTS get most support, however we still have 9 days for voting, 4BTS option still has chance to win. if you believe 4BTS is better, you can try to talk with proxies to get support from them.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline fav

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I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages.

not sure what you're referring to. you mean paying for a server and maintenance as work?

other than that, workers get paid decently, that's why we got that feature

Offline kenCode

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Sorry @Thom I didn't know you were expecting a reply from me. You had stated your case, and I stated mine, so I figured there was no sense in me spending any more time in the discussion. Sorry man, was not trying to avoid you or anything, have just been very busy.
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Offline xeroc

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Very disappointed the meat of the discussion & debate is being held on Telegram and not here. I have tried to be involved there but it's difficult and time consuming scrolling through all the discussions that are intermixed over the course of hours.

I saw your comment there @bitcrab about their fickle response to increase, ask for 3 BTS option then they recant and say none. I'm specifically referring to @kenCode. Shit I can't even prove he did that since it's ancient history on Telegram. Is that why he won't discuss here on the forum?

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages. Everyone wants "more passion" More work but aren't willing to say what that means; you are an exception @bitcrab, tho IMHO the criteria should be even broader than you've expressed.

I think I saw @tbone mention the inclusion on the testnet as a witness requirement. Not a bad idea, especially for standby witnesses. I have refrained from participation on the testnet due to the cost of an additional VPS, a high end VPS of AT LEAST 8GB and more likely to be realistic at least 16GB or more for performance testing.

I approve testnet participation as a requirement for witnesses, however I will probably have to cut out half of my seed nodes. If the 3BTS increase is voted in, I will re-evaluate. Asking me to support 4 nodes plus a high end node for testnet is a bit much for 3BTS. Also consider the significant increase of time required to participate in the testnet.

This witness pay issue and the "secret room" nature of it being conducted PRIMARILY in real time on Telegram and not for the wider community here on the forum (and for people in the future) is very sad. I've been hanging in there waiting for more activity in general, and @kenCode and his team have been one of the most aggressive in moving forward with further development, but I'm barely making any profit maintaining 4 full nodes.

I believe he refuses to consider the bigger picture of global witness concerns. To push an agenda of lower witness pay (by not keeping up with increasing costs) without consideration for the range of costs involved IN ALL AREAS OF THE GLOBE, INCLUDING NORTH AMERICA, is not good. He has refused to respond to my post that challenges him to show how HE could sustain HIS lifestyle on witness pay alone. He can't. Subsidizing a witness "business" is necessary for all but wage earners in the poorest economies. I see it similarly to the US subsidizing corporations through incentives to outsource their operations to countries with lower labor costs. Some things that makes perfect sense to do, for others it's cost cutting, profit seeking, short sided, near term thinking and the future be damned.

As for all those "silent" witnesses that fail to participate or provide feeds, the only recourse I can see to get their attention is voting them out. For all potential standby witnesses I really want to see them participate in the testnet, especially since that is the only way standby's can publish price feeds and perfect their scripts.

Thank you @bitcrab and @tbone for a reasonable voice in all this.
This and this and .... THIS!

Offline Thom

Very disappointed the meat of the discussion & debate is being held on Telegram and not here. I have tried to be involved there but it's difficult and time consuming scrolling through all the discussions that are intermixed over the course of hours.

I saw your comment there @bitcrab about their fickle response to increase, ask for 3 BTS option then they recant and say none. I'm specifically referring to @kenCode. Shit I can't even prove he did that since it's ancient history on Telegram. Is that why he won't discuss here on the forum?

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages. Everyone wants "more passion" More work but aren't willing to say what that means; you are an exception @bitcrab, tho IMHO the criteria should be even broader than you've expressed.

I think I saw @tbone mention the inclusion on the testnet as a witness requirement. Not a bad idea, especially for standby witnesses. I have refrained from participation on the testnet due to the cost of an additional VPS, a high end VPS of AT LEAST 8GB and more likely to be realistic at least 16GB or more for performance testing.

I approve testnet participation as a requirement for witnesses, however I will probably have to cut out half of my seed nodes. If the 3BTS increase is voted in, I will re-evaluate. Asking me to support 4 nodes plus a high end node for testnet is a bit much for 3BTS. Also consider the significant increase of time required to participate in the testnet.

This witness pay issue and the "secret room" nature of it being conducted PRIMARILY in real time on Telegram and not for the wider community here on the forum (and for people in the future) is very sad. I've been hanging in there waiting for more activity in general, and @kenCode and his team have been one of the most aggressive in moving forward with further development, but I'm barely making any profit maintaining 4 full nodes.

I believe he refuses to consider the bigger picture of global witness concerns. To push an agenda of lower witness pay (by not keeping up with increasing costs) without consideration for the range of costs involved IN ALL AREAS OF THE GLOBE, INCLUDING NORTH AMERICA, is not good. He has refused to respond to my post that challenges him to show how HE could sustain HIS lifestyle on witness pay alone. He can't. Subsidizing a witness "business" is necessary for all but wage earners in the poorest economies. I see it similarly to the US subsidizing corporations through incentives to outsource their operations to countries with lower labor costs. Some things that makes perfect sense to do, for others it's cost cutting, profit seeking, short sided, near term thinking and the future be damned.

As for all those "silent" witnesses that fail to participate or provide feeds, the only recourse I can see to get their attention is voting them out. For all potential standby witnesses I really want to see them participate in the testnet, especially since that is the only way standby's can publish price feeds and perfect their scripts.

Thank you @bitcrab and @tbone for a reasonable voice in all this. 
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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as many shareholders prefer 3BTS, so one more worker is created for 3BTS option, please vote if this is your choice.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com