Author Topic: WITNESS ACTION REQUIRED - 1 Million BTS Lockup to be a Witness  (Read 4773 times)

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Offline Thom

Thom, while I agree with you that some may value morals over money, few have been tested with that dilemma.  I know you are a steadfast bitshares supporter and have been here a long time.  From your comments here and on beyond bitcoin, I know that you value your principles more than money and you believe BTS is a platform that aligns with your principles.  It would be great if all the witness's were like you.
Thank you, that is very generous and kind of you to say.

That said,  very little is known about these witness's.  Most haven't posted any personal information and remain mostly anonymous other than there internet rep.  Trusting anonymous internet people has burned BTS before, remember Gentso and Cryptosmith? 
How could I possibly forget? Gentso shocked us all with what he did, if anyone knows that situation it's me. There is a huge difference in the situation with gentso and the trust placed with witnesses. The biggest difference is witnesses aren't paid in advance for the work they do, nor is what they receive nearly as large. In my opinion gentso should not have been put in the position where temptation was so big and risk so low. We all make mistakes. I doubt that one will be repeated. Also, it should be noted for the record that it wasn't shareholder funds that were lost. I'm not 100% certain but I believe it was a single investor that was impacted.

I believe you should judge the witnesses by their performance, not their label or status that some "authority" figure has bestowed upon them.  I don't think tying a real world ID is an absolute requirement, but I do believe it's necessary to establish a solid reputation. The fact that a witness can be voted out quickly is adequate incentive IMO for proper behavior. I also believe that as the use of the DEX increases there will come a point where individuals such as myself will not be able to maintain a reliable witness. However, that is not likely to happen suddenly, and there should be ample time for individuals to either up their game and if not they will be voted out. Again, it's back to performance. Reputation may come into play in the form of proxies and voter support (i.e. grace, lag, tolerance) for a witness, but I wouldn't expect that to go very far otherwise it would reflect poorly on the proxy.

The unique thing about witness's is that they get to produce blocks with relatively inexpensive equipment.  I know this costs money, but it is vastly cheaper than keeping up to date mining operations for bitcoin.  I think having the witness's put up 4000 in collateral isn't that bad... They only lose that if they damage the system, otherwise they can cease being a witness and do what they wish with their million BTS.
"Inexpensive" is relative. at 1.5 BTS / block there isn't much "profit" after server costs. It amazes me how many expect reliable, attentive services for 3rd world wages. It's unrealistic. Most witnesses have been operating for a year with declining pay, yet if anything server costs have increased. Reducing the number of witnesses from 27 to 23 did improve that somewhat, but as we see the level of traffic increasing nodes should be upgraded to stay ahead of the demand. And you now expect them to provide some collateral? Why? There is no plan for what would be done with it. I don't believe it provides any benefits to security at all. It might be useful for new and unknown witnesses as a way to measure their commitment, but that is risky too. That also reduces the likelihood new witnesses would want to participate.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think money doesn't play a role...
I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth. I recognize money is an incentive, but I'm not sure you believe most of us still here are motivated by principles or purpose over money. I think you're wrong about that. I consider the purpose of BitShares to be much more than a monetary investment for ROI gains. It's about replacing a corrupt financial monopoly with an free market alternative where everybody can benefit, including many who may not even be born yet. It's an investment in the future long term, not short term.

Corruption has been a part of world history forever and money is usually the reason behind it.  The bitshares platform and witness's will not be immune to it.  Granted BTS could be destroyed or completely centralized in one swoop right now, all that would have to happen is have the exchanges take their voting weight and elect their own witness's and committee members.  And this will probably happen if bitshares ever does start threatening the exchanges.
This is true. And yet you want to rely on money to direct people's behavior. You are not helping to remove money as a cause for corruption by doing so. If you want to do that you should find other means to vet / incentivize participants (witnesses, committee) such as demonstrable, measurable, objective metrics that directly relate to integrity, honor, reliability and quality of past performance. Money does not help with that, it only clouds the issue of true motivation.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 03:08:41 am by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline lil_jay890

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Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl

There are only 23 witness's right now, with another 33 in stand by.  If you don't have $4,000 to lock up as collateral for a blockchain that you are securing, I don't want you as a witness.  You could be too easily swayed (financially) to hurt the system.  Especially if you have nothing to lose by damaging it.

The whole "nothing to loose" argument is weak IMO. It fails to recognize money is not the only thing that motivates people. You should have learned that by now from those who built this platform. Integrity can indeed be tested with money, and to deny it plays a role in influencing behavior is naive. It is also naive to believe nothing can be a stronger motivator than money.

DSN's little experiment was interesting, but it failed to measure the commitment level of witnesses. It wasn't designed to do that, but rather to gather information about proxy voting and what voter's actually value.

Thom, while I agree with you that some may value morals over money, few have been tested with that dilemma.  I know you are a steadfast bitshares supporter and have been here a long time.  From your comments here and on beyond bitcoin, I know that you value your principles more than money and you believe BTS is a platform that aligns with your principles.  It would be great if all the witness's were like you.

That said,  very little is known about these witness's.  Most haven't posted any personal information and remain mostly anonymous other than there internet rep.  Trusting anonymous internet people has burned BTS before, remember Gentso and Cryptosmith? 

The unique thing about witness's is that they get to produce blocks with relatively inexpensive equipment.  I know this costs money, but it is vastly cheaper than keeping up to date mining operations for bitcoin.  I think having the witness's put up 4000 in collateral isn't that bad... They only lose that if they damage the system, otherwise they can cease being a witness and do what they wish with their million BTS.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think money doesn't play a role... Corruption has been a part of world history forever and money is usually the reason behind it.  The bitshares platform and witness's will not be immune to it.  Granted BTS could be destroyed or completely centralized in one swoop right now, all that would have to happen is have the exchanges take their voting weight and elect their own witness's and committee members.  And this will probably happen if bitshares ever does start threatening the exchanges. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 07:06:08 pm by lil_jay890 »

Offline Stan

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It fails to recognize money is not the only thing that motivates people. You should have learned that by now from those who built this platform.

Are you serious? All they ever talked about was getting the "fair market price" for their development activities. They changed the whole social consensus to get it.  In the end they abandoned the project because they couldn't get enough money out of the project anymore. And without even a "goodbye, we are moving on now."

While it is true that money is not the only thing that can motivate people, to condescendingly add that someone "should have learned that" by associating with those who built this platform is cheeky. They were motivated principally by money.  They said as much and each of their actions reflected that.

And this is not even stating the obvious: that they created a digital money, asked for donations in another form of digital money to distribute their own digital money, and built a distributed exchange where people trade different types of money. It's all about money!

We continued on for over a year after funding ran out using our savings and sweat equity - resulting in Graphene and BitShares 2.0.  But at some point, you have to provide real income for your family and your development team if you want to keep it together.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline blahblah7up

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That is a superficial perspective IMO. You must not have read much of Bytemaster's Blog, read the Satoshi Nakamoto paper or paid attention to how this entire field has come about.


What is superficial, is to assume things about strangers.

I will only add, that words and deed are quite different things.

Offline Thom


It fails to recognize money is not the only thing that motivates people. You should have learned that by now from those who built this platform.

Are you serious? All they ever talked about was getting the "fair market price" for their development activities. They changed the whole social consensus to get it.  In the end they abandoned the project because they couldn't get enough money out of the project anymore. And without even a "goodbye, we are moving on now."

While it is true that money is not the only thing that can motivate people, to condescendingly add that someone "should have learned that" by associating with those who built this platform is cheeky. They were motivated principally by money.  They said as much and each of their actions reflected that.

And this is not even stating the obvious: that they created a digital money, asked for donations in another form of digital money to distribute their own digital money, and built a distributed exchange where people trade different types of money. It's all about money!

That is a superficial perspective IMO. You must not have read much of Bytemaster's Blog, read the Satoshi Nakamoto paper or paid attention to how this entire field has come about. It's not difficult to see what your primary motivation is.

Sure, as I said money is part of everyone's motivation. Where you miss the mark is thinking it is a primary motivation for most people.

Yes, my tone was rather condescending I agree. My apologies for that. I tire easily of people who don't see the bigger picture.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline blahblah7up

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It fails to recognize money is not the only thing that motivates people. You should have learned that by now from those who built this platform.

Are you serious? All they ever talked about was getting the "fair market price" for their development activities. They changed the whole social consensus to get it.  In the end they abandoned the project because they couldn't get enough money out of the project anymore. And without even a "goodbye, we are moving on now."

While it is true that money is not the only thing that can motivate people, to condescendingly add that someone "should have learned that" by associating with those who built this platform is cheeky. They were motivated principally by money.  They said as much and each of their actions reflected that.

And this is not even stating the obvious: that they created a digital money, asked for donations in another form of digital money to distribute their own digital money, and built a distributed exchange where people trade different types of money. It's all about money!

Offline Thom

Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl

There are only 23 witness's right now, with another 33 in stand by.  If you don't have $4,000 to lock up as collateral for a blockchain that you are securing, I don't want you as a witness.  You could be too easily swayed (financially) to hurt the system.  Especially if you have nothing to lose by damaging it.

The whole "nothing to loose" argument is weak IMO. It fails to recognize money is not the only thing that motivates people. You should have learned that by now from those who built this platform. Integrity can indeed be tested with money, and to deny it plays a role in influencing behavior is naive. It is also naive to believe nothing can be a stronger motivator than money.

DSN's little experiment was interesting, but it failed to measure the commitment level of witnesses. It wasn't designed to do that, but rather to gather information about proxy voting and what voter's actually value.   
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline oakmaster

Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl

There are only 23 witness's right now, with another 33 in stand by.  If you don't have $4,000 to lock up as collateral for a blockchain that you are securing, I don't want you as a witness.  You could be too easily swayed (financially) to hurt the system.  Especially if you have nothing to lose by damaging it.
Your right Bitcoin and every alt is turning right into the centralised banking system I rember I have a company I spend more than 4000 in gas just in one work truck for the year but some ppl dont have it like others so I guess those ppl are losers just like corporate America

Offline lil_jay890

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Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl

There are only 23 witness's right now, with another 33 in stand by.  If you don't have $4,000 to lock up as collateral for a blockchain that you are securing, I don't want you as a witness.  You could be too easily swayed (financially) to hurt the system.  Especially if you have nothing to lose by damaging it.

Offline oakmaster

Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:31:17 pm by oakmaster »

Offline lil_jay890

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Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

Offline oakmaster

Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:58:33 pm by oakmaster »

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Dantheman has explained the issue with the OP much better than I ever could.

https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/response-to-cosmos-white-paper-s-claims-on-dpos-security

I also believe in the future of the network and the BTS token but choose to short fiat, provide liquidity and trade on our DEX.

Yes it is a great analysis of the finer points of the differences.

I started this in response to the call from the #2 largest proxy in telegram saying he would support witnesses that would participate in such a 'lockup of bts' sort of arrangement. I thought this would be interesting to see if other proxies would make such a commitment and if this might create some kind of shakeup/competition.

It's been disappointing to see that not only did the proxy not change any of his voting patterns, no other proxies took to this little experiment.

I see no reason why witnesses should offer to lock up BTS at this point, as other players within the system who seemed to claim value in such action seem unwilling to reward it with their voter support, and other proxies have not given any consideration to this move.

Anyway.. I saw this as a fun little experiment as I mentioned earlier on to see if it would make an impact in any way in the political space of the witnesses and it didn't.

Much more important for bitshares to answer is why question.
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Dantheman has explained the issue with the OP much better than I ever could.

https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/response-to-cosmos-white-paper-s-claims-on-dpos-security

I also believe in the future of the network and the BTS token but choose to short fiat, provide liquidity and trade on our DEX.

Offline pc

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Still don't get it?
Whats the point other than showing everyone that witness can afford to have 1M BTS sitting doing nothing.

The point is that a witness should believe in the future of the network and the BTS token. By having BTS "sitting doing nothing" I'm putting my money where I believe the future lies. Any actions I take that might harm the network will cause financial damage to me, by reducing the value of my BTS.
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