Author Topic: Next Committee Proposal: Witness Pay  (Read 12353 times)

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Offline alt

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I have remove my vote for witness jerryliu.

But I know bitcrab is very busy for help bitshares these days,
he had contact many new partner(include exchange, ico, bitCNY gateway) to join bitshares.
and attend some meetup in Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu for Bitshares
he is the best  wealth for Bitshares,
I need our witness with a high quality
So I will vote for jerryliu again when he resovle the feed price problem.

Offline Permie

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@bitcrab, you truly help this community, and I am very grateful for that.

Quote
fortunatelly now in a whole the price feeding of witnesses work well so my absent do not lead to obvious worse consequence...

What would happen if other witnesses used this same excuse? It's not like you can't afford to hire someone to resolve the issue for you.

I won't keep hounding you about this but if others do I think it's deserved.

Perhaps you should consider giving up your witness slot so others who have the time and are able to perform according to the standards you yourself have described  have a chance to.

Please respect the Witness job and take steps to correct this as soon as possible.
+5%

I've only just learned of this grievance with bitcrab, but if witness' responsibilities are being neglected then it would be better if the witness-slot was given up to the market to find a better replacement.

Does bitcrab have enough proxy votes to keep himself elected?

I know you have put a lot of your time, effort and financial faith into Bitshares bitcrab, and I am grateful for it.

But being a witness doesn't bring you any significant profit (or shouldn't). Witness pay is to hire an employee to manage computer servers that can provide services to the Shareholders. If you haven't got time for that, why do you still want to remain elected?
JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
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Offline Thom

@bitcrab, you truly help this community, and I am very grateful for that.

Quote
fortunatelly now in a whole the price feeding of witnesses work well so my absent do not lead to obvious worse consequence...

What would happen if other witnesses used this same excuse? It's not like you can't afford to hire someone to resolve the issue for you.

I won't keep hounding you about this but if others do I think it's deserved.

Perhaps you should consider giving up your witness slot so others who have the time and are able to perform according to the standards you yourself have described  have a chance to.

Please respect the Witness job and take steps to correct this as soon as possible.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline pc

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now I would like to propose to adjust the witness pay to 1BTS/block immediatelly.

+1

I am not a enough skilled programmer/system administrator, and I am very busy these days, after I updated my witness node I also tried to do feeding with btsprice, but not sure what happen I kept failing to do so...
fortunatelly now in a whole the price feeding of witnesses work well so my absent do not lead to obvious worse consequence...
I'll try to fix my price feeding scripts when I have time...

I see you're still voting for your own witness. Would you accept your own performance from others as well?
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de

Offline bitcrab

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I don't disagree with your request @bitcrab, I would not oppose it.

However, I would like to point out that you are not exactly setting a good example for witnesses to follow.

You were the one who helped promote the rise in witness pay and I supported you in that.

I am quite sad your feeds are broken AND you missed a huge number of blocks, that's not acting responsibly towards your role as a witness, and it makes us all look bad. Please try to do better and get your feeds running again!

I am sorry for the bad behavior of my witness in recent past.
I am not a enough skilled programmer/system administrator, and I am very busy these days, after I updated my witness node I also tried to do feeding with btsprice, but not sure what happen I kept failing to do so...
fortunatelly now in a whole the price feeding of witnesses work well so my absent do not lead to obvious worse consequence...
I'll try to fix my price feeding scripts when I have time...

Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline Thom

I don't disagree with your request @bitcrab, I would not oppose it.

However, I would like to point out that you are not exactly setting a good example for witnesses to follow.

You were the one who helped promote the rise in witness pay and I supported you in that.

I am quite sad your feeds are broken AND you missed a huge number of blocks, that's not acting responsibly towards your role as a witness, and it makes us all look bad. Please try to do better and get your feeds running again!
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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now I would like to propose to adjust the witness pay to 1BTS/block immediatelly.

from March to now, the BTS price went up 10 times and the witness price doubled in BTS, generally speaking we can say that now the witness is obviously overpaid.

it is not easy to get a perfect witness pay infrastructure, and we can continue the discuss on this topic, but at the same time, I think we need to adjust the witness payment to more reasonable and acceptable level immediatelly.

the number that come to my brain firstly is 1BTS/block, in current price it means about $1720/month for a witness.

I feel this payment  is enough to pay the cost for a witness,  and I don't think $1720/month is a overpaid salary to a witness that do good job in block generation, software update, price feeding...we need to provide a good salary, not a lowest salary.

and surely this is not the final witness payment, we can review this number continuely when price change a lot. but now I think we need to reduce the price immediatelly.

it will end or at least elimate most of the complaint to current witness payment, and will save much budget for worker proposals.

and this will tell the world: Bitshares team are able to consider globally, they focus more on the benefit of the whole community but not the benefit of a small group.

any ideas? please let me know, if there's few objection, I think we can apply the proposal in short time, otherwise, maybe we also need vote to decide.





Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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 I agree now the witness is a little overpaid , but instead of reducing the salary of witness, I would rather see more APIs provided by witness, as we need a more fluent network.
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Offline Chris4210

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I am also supporting to adjust the witness pay to maintain the best possible security for the network.

I would prefer to see more witness reports and comparisons between the different witnesses quality of work. As a shareholder, I am ok to pay more for witnesses when they also do a good job. A high salary should attract more active witnesses who compete for the top of the list. If we still see no voting activity from the shareholders, then we all need to raise more awareness for voting.

To move forward, I suggest to monitor the BTS price for a few more days and adjust the witness pay if the price further goes up. Right now we hit a new floor of 0.039 USD .
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Offline sahkan

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now we need more good API server all around the world, I think providing good API server can be a plus for a witness.
I couldn't agree more. We need more access points to provide better experience for users.

Offline bitcrab

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from my side it's ok to reduce the witness pay to, say, 1BTS/block.

but I do not agree that it's easy to do the witness job well enough.

responding in time, upgrading while necessary, providing exact enough price feed... always need to pay time and efforts to keep the witness running well.

now we need more good API server all around the world, I think providing good API server can be a plus for a witness.

Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline Bhuz

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Sorry for OT, I will take more care posting.
I think I started the post with "There is a problem with parts of the jobs the witnesses do, and if more money can solve it, it should" and that went a little to far with my post. Will come back when I'm more familiar with everything.
Ahah, no worries!

I hope to have clarified a little bit your concerns...

Inviato dal mio Nexus 5X utilizzando Tapatalk


Offline 8ejM

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Hi,


Hi and welcome!

First, this is completely Off Topic, you should had opened a new Topic and post your concerns there, not hijack this thread...


Sorry for OT, I will take more care posting.
I think I started the post with "There is a problem with parts of the jobs the witnesses do, and if more money can solve it, it should" and that went a little to far with my post. Will come back when I'm more familiar with everything.

Offline Bhuz

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1- Should we consider how much the witness "ideal" guy is worth on the real world? (ie. how much a (even Junior) SysAdmin gets paid)

Yes, BUT running a witness is far from a full-time job. When I was a witness I was happy with the payment, despite the much lower rewards and BTS price. I had a few night shifts in the early days of the chain, but since then the node was mostly running on its own.

Admittedly, the work load on witnesses is somewhat higher today, not so much from running a node but mostly from the price feeds. Apparently feed sources are unreliable at times, and there is a certain lack of consensus on what the "correct" price for certain assets is.
I agree it isn't a full-time job, even tho I find myself spending a lot of my time for it, way more than the 5hours/month estimated in another thread


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2- Should we consider the 24/7/365 requirement aspect of the witness job? (you can sleep, have week-ends and holidays, but you still have to "go to the office" in a timely manner no matter what the day and time is)

The problem here is that we (the shareholders) cannot enfore what rules we impose on witnesses. We can *expect* a witness to respond in time, but we cannot claim damages if he doesn't. It is therefore unreasonable to pay them as if it was a regular 24/7 job.
I think shareholders and proxies could remove their votes for those witnesses that do not respond in time (ie, still offline after 12/24 hours), in that way they can expect and "enforce" it
Plus, the reference for the 24/7 doesn't have to mean to pay them as a 24/7 job, but maybe add a little bonus on top of the decided base pay


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3- Should we consider how much other blockchains spend (invest?) for their own security? (ie. how much BTC, ETH, etc spend, compared to market-cap) (even other dpos like STEEM and soon PEERPLAYS)

Yes, BUT the fact that the cost for security is much lower in DPOS than in POW chains has always been highlighted as a big pro for BitShares. So don't let us drop that.

4- Should we consider the current profitability of the DEX DAC?

No. The chain is still running far below its saturation level. At this point it is important to attract more users. Sacrificing service quality for a minor increase in profitability is a bad idea IMO. (Remember that witness pay is a relatively small part of the current spendings).

Maybe more tough (and subjective?) questions:
5- How much is the whole blockchain task, security and decentralization worth? (this is what a witness really do, from a pure blockchain pov) (looking at point 3 may help)

IMO the best judge for this is the market. :-) Obviously, the service provided by witnesses is essential for the existence of the blockchain. But that doesn't mean we should all hand over our holdings to the witnesses.

Remember that BitShares is a DAC, and whatever the C stands for, it will try to get the best possible service from witnesses for the least possible cost.

6- Should 4, and particularly 4b, be able to overcome 5?
n/a
I overall agree with your points, thanks for the thoughtful reply


Thanks for the explanation. I didn't read that far. :-/

That means steem pays 25*0.189 STEEM per 63 seconds (one round), or 25*0.189 / 63 * 86400 * 30 * 0.562 = 109,252.80 USD/month.
You right, I didn't considered the x5 of the runner-up. I will edit my post, thanks!

Offline Bhuz

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Hi,

I new to Bitshares, so I may fully informed about everything.  I started buying BTS a few days ago, mainly because of bitUSD. I read through the white papers and were especially excited about the pegged assets. I went on an bought a bunch of BTS. Some days later I wanted to buy some bitUSD and bitCNY. I was and still am very confused about market prices below settlement price since I red in the white paper that pegged assets are expected to be traded at at least the price of the underlying asset.
My excitement for bts took a hit, since it didn't seem to behave as outlined in the white paper and it seemed that a lot more market knowledge was needed to buy at a reasonable price and don't get cheated.
Then I learned about the page where pricefeeds where shown and was shocked that feeds are not updated in manners of seconds but minutes, hours, days and even weeks. I saw forced settlements and witnessed a change in settlement price just a minute later. This made me very suspicious.
Then a learned about complaints about witnesses that don't update the price feed and are still official sources of price data.

At the end I stopped trading and will wait till I gathered enough information about the market. I simply don't really trust the data at the moment.

Why am I telling you all this? Because I think its a typical example for someone new to bts. And some will just leave when they feel that something is weird. It is very important that problems like proper price feeds are fixed. When the cryptomarket sees a correction people will give BTS as a possibility for cashing out in fiat a try. If by then these problems are not fixed. We will loose a huge amount of potential users, that never will come back.

If the problem can be solved by throwing more money at it, take both hands a throw as lot money as needed.

A more modular approach might also be a way to achieve better results. I don't know about all tasks of a witness. But would price feed data a task of its own, one could easily drop everybody with poor data quality from the list. Removing bad quality data sources is something a algorithm can do well, you would not have to start voting campaigns on the forum for that.

Hi and welcome!

First, this is completely Off Topic, you should had opened a new Topic and post your concerns there, not hijack this thread...

Anyway, you can always trade in the market for whatever price you want/you think is right, pricefeed doesn't really matter for that purpose. You decide on what prices to sell and to buy.
Pricefeeds from witnesses are used only for forced settlements that get "activated" after 24hours, so having a pricefeeds that updates itself in minutes isn't really a problem...it actually could prevent market manipulation.
The blockchain already remove "bad data quality" by using the median of all published pricefeeds, plus every witnesses use different price sources and publish the mean/median/weighted result based on his settings