Author Topic: The real difference between AGS and PTS  (Read 15973 times)

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sumantso

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But there is no reason that PTS should fall except if BTS fall because it is the only way to buy into other I3 DACs if AGS are not tradable...

Nope, other I3 DACs will have a minimum of 10% allotted to PTS. There will still be other ways to get into them.

Offline weiry

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Would it make sense for I3 to merge AGS and PTS after donation period is over?

As I said in the other thread, in future, I3 MAY list the AGS in cryptostocks or something similar and make them tradeable; awarding shares to the accounts in that 'exchange'.

Delulo - I know you are not too in favour of AGS due to they being unsellable. But look at it this way - do you believe the PTS shares in the future DACs will make it so expensive that you are willing to write off the extra BTSX earned now through AGS? Remember, in future, the DACs will allot upto 80% through other means, so its not as if PTS is the only way to gain them. In fact, it may even turn out that PTS price goes down while BTSX price goes up after BTSX release.

The point is that there is no easy answer - its all wildly speculative. Hence, IMO its best to spread out among both.

True. Its definitely a balance! And above I actually put forward arguments pro AGS...

But there is no reason that PTS should fall except if BTS fall because it is the only way to buy into other I3 DACs if AGS are not tradable...


You're pretty much equally bought into all I3 DACs with PTS and AGS.

The difference is you can't currently "buy out" of I3 DACs with AGS.

My limited understanding is PTS and AGS will have an equal stake in ALL Invictus DACs. AGS are a one time event to help fund the initial development of the platforms that will be the foundation of all I3's offerings in the DACspace. However you can cash out your PTS for reinvestment in anything you can trade BTC for, AGS will at least initially only offer you a stake in I3 and any DACs that are derived from their code.

Offline santaclause102

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Would it make sense for I3 to merge AGS and PTS after donation period is over?

As I said in the other thread, in future, I3 MAY list the AGS in cryptostocks or something similar and make them tradeable; awarding shares to the accounts in that 'exchange'.

Delulo - I know you are not too in favour of AGS due to they being unsellable. But look at it this way - do you believe the PTS shares in the future DACs will make it so expensive that you are willing to write off the extra BTSX earned now through AGS? Remember, in future, the DACs will allot upto 80% through other means, so its not as if PTS is the only way to gain them. In fact, it may even turn out that PTS price goes down while BTSX price goes up after BTSX release.

The point is that there is no easy answer - its all wildly speculative. Hence, IMO its best to spread out among both.

True. Its definitely a balance! And above I actually put forward arguments pro AGS...

But there is no reason that PTS should fall except if BTS fall because it is the only way to buy into other I3 DACs if AGS are not tradable...

Offline bytemaster

They would honor AGS if they wanted to use our source code as the foundation of their company


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Offline weiry

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... and tbh I secretly think people in the future (not invictus) would honor PTS but not AGS.

Why?

Well...

People will be able to buy PTS later. Whereas AGS to my understanding can only be acquired during the AGS funding period. Furthermore the AGS funding is controlled by III.

If I were developing a DAC I could acquire PTS and only honor PTS in the launch of my DAC, viewing AGS as dilution of my new DAC holdings.

Is this actually the case? I don't know.

I would imagine that having both AGS & PTS holders would strengthen my DAC's ecosystem by increasing the number of shareholders. Simultaneously I imagine that most AGS holders also hold PTS, so perhaps my equity in the DAC would be diluted without really increasing the number of people who have a stake in the DAC.

I agree with your last paragraph.
But if you develope a DAC in 1 year PTS will be quite expensive and you can only get a fraction of all PTS for a reasonable price. That would not be very effective to increase your profits. Would be more effective to reserve 1% of all tokens of your DAC for yourself... and give the rest to PTS/AGS holders. If you leave out AGS you risk dispute.

Would it make sense for I3 to merge AGS and PTS after donation period is over? 




I believe I3 is building their Social Contract license to effectively merge AGS & PTS.

I think in the end pretty much anyone using I3 code is going to honor both. Your 1% (or whatever percentages the Social Contract allows) idea does allow you to mitigate interest dilution while honoring AGS & PTS.

I personally only hold PTS at the moment. I'll be investing in AGS with BTC over the next few weeks though. I was thinking about increasing my PTS holdings but currently AGS seems like the better value. I figure either way I'm investing in Invictus and I'd rather have a greater share in their future.

sumantso

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Would it make sense for I3 to merge AGS and PTS after donation period is over?

As I said in the other thread, in future, I3 MAY list the AGS in cryptostocks or something similar and make them tradeable; awarding shares to the accounts in that 'exchange'.

Delulo - I know you are not too in favour of AGS due to they being unsellable. But look at it this way - do you believe the PTS shares in the future DACs will make it so expensive that you are willing to write off the extra BTSX earned now through AGS? Remember, in future, the DACs will allot upto 80% through other means, so its not as if PTS is the only way to gain them. In fact, it may even turn out that PTS price goes down while BTSX price goes up after BTSX release.

The point is that there is no easy answer - its all wildly speculative. Hence, IMO its best to spread out among both.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 09:27:44 pm by sumantso »

Offline santaclause102

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... and tbh I secretly think people in the future (not invictus) would honor PTS but not AGS.

Why?

Well...

People will be able to buy PTS later. Whereas AGS to my understanding can only be acquired during the AGS funding period. Furthermore the AGS funding is controlled by III.

If I were developing a DAC I could acquire PTS and only honor PTS in the launch of my DAC, viewing AGS as dilution of my new DAC holdings.

Is this actually the case? I don't know.

I would imagine that having both AGS & PTS holders would strengthen my DAC's ecosystem by increasing the number of shareholders. Simultaneously I imagine that most AGS holders also hold PTS, so perhaps my equity in the DAC would be diluted without really increasing the number of people who have a stake in the DAC.

I agree with your last paragraph.
But if you develope a DAC in 1 year PTS will be quite expensive and you can only get a fraction of all PTS for a reasonable price. That would not be very effective to increase your profits. Would be more effective to reserve 1% of all tokens of your DAC for yourself... and give the rest to PTS/AGS holders. If you leave out AGS you risk dispute.

Would it make sense for I3 to merge AGS and PTS after donation period is over? 



sumantso

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... and tbh I secretly think people in the future (not invictus) would honor PTS but not AGS.

Why?

Coz PTS is a mined coin while AGS is a donation. Its a matter of perception. In anycase, I believe if 3rd party uses I3 copyrighted code they will have to honour AGS too.

My ratio for PTS:AGS is 2:1. My target was to go 1:1 and I planned to start donating in PTS (or rather BTC earned from selling PTS) when my BTC ran out. But with PTS getting hammered (and I still blame I3 for it - makes me feel better), there is not much to be gained diluting PTS for AGS right now.

If Bytemaster delivers BTSX within 2 months, each AGS will give more than 2 BTSX - thats a great deal.

Btw, if you are thinking of starting donating for AGS, scroll down and have a look at my investment strategy https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2321.0
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 09:05:51 pm by sumantso »

Offline weiry

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... and tbh I secretly think people in the future (not invictus) would honor PTS but not AGS.

Why?

Well...

People will be able to buy PTS later. Whereas AGS to my understanding can only be acquired during the AGS funding period. Furthermore the AGS funding is controlled by III.

If I were developing a DAC I could acquire PTS and only honor PTS in the launch of my DAC, viewing AGS as dilution of my new DAC holdings.

Is this actually the case? I don't know.

I would imagine that having both AGS & PTS holders would strengthen my DAC's ecosystem by increasing the number of shareholders. Simultaneously I imagine that most AGS holders also hold PTS, so perhaps my equity in the DAC would be diluted without really increasing the number of people who have a stake in the DAC.

Offline santaclause102

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... and tbh I secretly think people in the future (not invictus) would honor PTS but not AGS.

Why?

Offline toast

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That aside, I am still unsure whether I should donate BTC or buy more PTS. What do you guys think, is there a ratio of PTS/AGS that you strive for, or do you essentially prefer one over the other?

AGS for more bitshares/$, PTS for resale value and tbh I secretly think people in the future (not invictus) would honor PTS but not AGS.

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Also, are AGS useable after the introduction of BTS, in the same way I would still be able to use my ProtoShares or are they 'gone' after this process and merely represent the amount of individual donations for BTS?

I3 will honor AGS in all of their DACs
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Offline FelixO

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Whats the 5:1?

Bitshares to Protoshares

How?

2 million BTSX will be distributed among 1.2-1.3m PTS; making almost 1.3 BTSX/PTS.
2 million BTSX will be distributed among 0.6-2m AGS; making anything between 3-1 BTSX/AGS.

Personally I am optimistic we will get at least 2+ BTSX/AGS. If not, I will round up the fellow AGS donors, grab some pitchforks and gasoline, and head over to Bytemaster's castle.

Yes I keep reading references towards a 5:1 distribution but your explanation seems to contain more reasonable numbers. It's quite hard to find such essential informations. There really should be a place where all important informations like this are gathered in an easily accessible and understandable way, without having to spend hours digging through countless forum posts. (with the abundance of intellect in this crowd this is admittedly fun though  ;) )

That aside, I am still unsure whether I should donate BTC or buy more PTS. What do you guys think, is there a ratio of PTS/AGS that you strive for, or do you essentially prefer one over the other?
Also, are AGS useable after the introduction of BTS, in the same way I would still be able to use my ProtoShares or are they 'gone' after this process and merely represent the amount of individual donations for BTS?

Offline santaclause102

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As a PTS holder I am seriously peeved at the raw deal I3 gave us.

Can you explain?  I thought PTS was more valuable now because rather than receiving 10% of the DAC the PTS shares now receive 50%.. is that inaccurate?

AGS kind of ended up pegging PTS value. People are now selling PTS for AGS.

That just makes sense to a certain extend though. Because holding PTS gives you BTS plus you can keep your PTS.... Think that was an exception today because someone put in a lot at once which is about half of the PTS donated...

Offline yellowecho

As a PTS holder I am seriously peeved at the raw deal I3 gave us.

Can you explain?  I thought PTS was more valuable now because rather than receiving 10% of the DAC the PTS shares now receive 50%.. is that inaccurate?

AGS kind of ended up pegging PTS value. People are now selling PTS for AGS.


That doesn't explain how I3 gave us a "raw deal" though.  PTS gets 5x more BTS than originally promised now so even if the nominal value falls you're still ahead in terms of BTS.  And if you're upset about that, why don't you just liquidate your PTS for AGS like everyone else? 
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sumantso

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As a PTS holder I am seriously peeved at the raw deal I3 gave us.

Can you explain?  I thought PTS was more valuable now because rather than receiving 10% of the DAC the PTS shares now receive 50%.. is that inaccurate?

AGS kind of ended up pegging PTS value. People are now selling PTS for AGS.