Author Topic: Binance Dexathon - Discussion  (Read 2170 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« on: March 22, 2018, 12:33:38 pm »
Considering the recent press release of Binance: https://medium.com/binanceexchange/binance-dexathon-845dc0cbfffe
it seems they are looking for a team to reinvent the wheel.

Assuming that the BBF applied for that hackathon, what reasons would there be for Binance to
not fork the BitShares Code and instead use the existing blockchain?

Feedback, please!
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Offline clockwork

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 12:49:50 pm »
I'm guessing their only concern would be sharing parameter control, dev direction etc.

I think they probably care about decentralisation to the extent of p2p atomic trading etc...not entire platform decentralisation

Offline Ravid

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 01:41:24 pm »
They could agree to use the public bitshares chain if they'd have a spot or two as the comittee members and/or witnesses so that they have some control over the development and general direction.

I'm not saying it's good for us to have a company in the comittee, but the benefits could outweight the cons.

Right now it looks like a very bad idea to me, but it's worth discussing anyway.

Offline abit

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 01:43:28 pm »
I agree with @clockwork. I think most likely they will fork. So, IMHO we should seeking for convincing them to

* fork BitShares rather than fork another project, and
* fork publicly rather than privately.

Then we'll gain good PR and their future efforts will help the whole ecosystem, for example we can back-port fixes/features from them.
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Offline clockwork

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 01:44:36 pm »
They could agree to use the public bitshares chain if they'd have a spot or two as the comittee members and/or witnesses so that they have some control over the development and general direction.

I'm not saying it's good for us to have a company in the comittee, but the benefits could outweight the cons.

Right now it looks like a very bad idea to me, but it's worth discussing anyway.

Noone would agree to a hf to allow this ( and none of us I think wants that)...so they'd have to manage it on their own stake..which means buying approx 400m BTS...so using the platform doesnt end up quite free after all

They couldnt do it with consumer funds cause that would open a whole can of worms of allowing exchanges to vote with user funds (which would include competitors such as poloniex etc.)

Offline clockwork

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 01:45:52 pm »
I agree with @clockwork. I think most likely they will fork. So, IMHO we should seeking for convincing them to

* fork BitShares rather than fork another project, and
* fork publicly rather than privately.

Then we'll gain good PR and their future efforts will help the whole ecosystem, for example we can back-port fixes/features from them.

Yeah, I pretty much think a fork is inevitable ....but the publicity would be huge...

We can offer to help them with it if they share stuff back I guess.

Offline abit

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 01:53:25 pm »
They could agree to use the public bitshares chain if they'd have a spot or two as the comittee members and/or witnesses so that they have some control over the development and general direction.

I'm not saying it's good for us to have a company in the comittee, but the benefits could outweight the cons.

Right now it looks like a very bad idea to me, but it's worth discussing anyway.

They are centralized, so they're much more efficient on decision making than us, and probably much faster on development if they have the resources. A spot or two in committee changes nothing. Once they want a new feature, they may want to deploy in one month, which is usually impossible in bitShares due to decentralization.
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Offline paliboy

Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 01:58:21 pm »
They could agree to use the public bitshares chain if they'd have a spot or two as the comittee members and/or witnesses so that they have some control over the development and general direction.

I'm not saying it's good for us to have a company in the comittee, but the benefits could outweight the cons.

Right now it looks like a very bad idea to me, but it's worth discussing anyway.

There are already companies (directly or indirectly) in the committee. How is it different this time?

Offline Ravid

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 02:09:20 pm »
They could agree to use the public bitshares chain if they'd have a spot or two as the comittee members and/or witnesses so that they have some control over the development and general direction.

I'm not saying it's good for us to have a company in the comittee, but the benefits could outweight the cons.

Right now it looks like a very bad idea to me, but it's worth discussing anyway.

There are already companies (directly or indirectly) in the committee. How is it different this time?

The difference is the familiarity with the community and the ecosystem. The fact that they were voted in, not forcibly pushed.


Anyway we might not have a choice. Binance will find some blockchain to migrate to. Then other exchanges will follow.
Every exchange will remain a separate business from us. And we will lose our edge.
At least if we apply and win we can benefit from new features they may develop.
If we don't we get nothing and only lose.


The other issue is that we are so confident we'll win, no one considers the bad publicity if we apply and lose.

Offline clockwork

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 02:23:46 pm »
They could agree to use the public bitshares chain if they'd have a spot or two as the comittee members and/or witnesses so that they have some control over the development and general direction.

I'm not saying it's good for us to have a company in the comittee, but the benefits could outweight the cons.

Right now it looks like a very bad idea to me, but it's worth discussing anyway.

There are already companies (directly or indirectly) in the committee. How is it different this time?

The difference is the familiarity with the community and the ecosystem. The fact that they were voted in, not forcibly pushed.


Anyway we might not have a choice. Binance will find some blockchain to migrate to. Then other exchanges will follow.
Every exchange will remain a separate business from us. And we will lose our edge.
At least if we apply and win we can benefit from new features they may develop.
If we don't we get nothing and only lose.


The other issue is that we are so confident we'll win, no one considers the bad publicity if we apply and lose.


Agreed, and I would have no problem with them  being part of the committee if they got voted in. The only way to guarantee they get voted in though is through purchasing enough stake.

At current BTS prices, that would cost them 50-60m USD. Which is why I can't see it happening.


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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 02:51:42 pm »
IMO, BTS covers all their requirements, if someone created a mockup theme/skin for the web wallet then they'd at least win a runner up reward I'd think.

Convincing them to become a gateway would be the difficult task, though not impossible.
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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 09:49:55 pm »
Assuming that the BBF applied for that hackathon, what reasons would there be for Binance to
not fork the BitShares Code and instead use the existing blockchain?

* forking is not trivial
* skilled and experienced (!) developers are hard to find
* we have an existing ecosystem (community, users) that can't be forked so easily
* BTS already has value, development of codebase basically pays for itself

IMO we have much to gain and little to lose from applying.
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Offline KenMonkey

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 11:16:44 pm »
Assuming that the BBF applied for that hackathon, what reasons would there be for Binance to
not fork the BitShares Code and instead use the existing blockchain?

* forking is not trivial
* skilled and experienced (!) developers are hard to find
* we have an existing ecosystem (community, users) that can't be forked so easily
* BTS already has value, development of codebase basically pays for itself

IMO we have much to gain and little to lose from applying.
Pshaw! They should be so lucky as to use the BitShares blockchain. Sure! Put another exchange on the BitShares blockchain. Has anyone entered BitShares in this? Wtf is even binance? Sounds silly.

Offline bench

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2018, 11:35:14 pm »
The BTS Foundation should stay in contact with the Binance team. The Binance Exchange have a huge userbase and on the long run both projects will benefit.

I don't see a problem when a member from Binance gets a witness.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 11:41:30 pm by bench »

Offline zapata42

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 09:20:45 am »
Assuming that the BBF applied for that hackathon, what reasons would there be for Binance to
not fork the BitShares Code and instead use the existing blockchain?

* forking is not trivial
* skilled and experienced (!) developers are hard to find
* we have an existing ecosystem (community, users) that can't be forked so easily
* BTS already has value, development of codebase basically pays for itself

IMO we have much to gain and little to lose from applying.

I completely agree with you.

I would add / explicit some points:

  - Bootstrapping a truly decentralized / resilient community is hard and expensive (marketing to find witnesses, organize the governance, build trust...)
  - Building a decentralized exchange when you are a centralized company has no meaning (even more if you are the unique gateway). They will waste a lot of time and effort to convince others to join. If decentralization really matters to them, it is smarter to join Bitshares platform.
  - They will benefit of our worldwide decentralized infrastructure for free.
  - They get closed source third party applications like cryptofresh, bts.ai, ... for free
  - They will benefit of existing and future liquidity like bitspark, reserve fund, and other gateway bring
  - They will be able to list to existing smart assets (bitXXX, hero, Hertz, bittwenty/bittwentix, nasdaq,...) and attract their volume for free
  - They will benefit directly from the Bitshares (DAC/Financial Platform) marketing effort, and indirectly from other business marketing.
  - Development effort could become a revenue instead of a cost! (= worker proposal).
  - The development effort and cost is mutualized with all the others participants.
  - Building open source / decentralized software is really different than doing a closed source centralized software, you need the (really rare) appropriate skills and experience on open source development, blockchain/event based systems and decentralization.
  - By applying Bitshares community show their will to accept them in the community. It is not a wise move to fork a project that share the same goal as you and propose collabration, you fork because you have different ideas.
  - They should worry about getting more time to focus on AML / KYC / tax compliance, not rebuilding what already exists.
  - They already have the bridge between the dex and their cex

I think we should show them how they could setup their BNB token with the example of cyrptobridge or obits.
It can also be the opportunity to write an open source public example on how to build a deposit/withdraw gateway.

Imho getting a big influence is currently not so costly. You don't want to own too much anyway (this will kill the decentralized aspect). 30% should be the high cap. If you are active and big, many poeple will follow you (as a proxy, or vote in your direction). So 200M BTS should be enough. You should be able to get them with 30M-40M dollars max in current market conditions, which is nothing for a serious company.

I think blockchain industry is currently too fragmented, the future will be made of merges and acquisitions not forks. It is just a matter of time to see massive takeover bids on Bitshares.

I think we should apply for the contest. Bitshares as a financial platform have been made exaclty for that.  If we don't win we should learn why and fix the issue.
Maybe it worth a community vote to see if everyone agree we should make some efforts on that direction, as this could have a major impact for the users, but also for existing business. I'm very curius to know the position of existing gateways on the topic...

Do we know why they state "Currently, decentralized exchanges are inefficient and difficult to operate for the average user."? What is their level of knowledge on Bitshares? I hope they did some research before starting this kind of project...

Offline clockwork

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2018, 09:49:29 am »
Assuming that the BBF applied for that hackathon, what reasons would there be for Binance to
not fork the BitShares Code and instead use the existing blockchain?

* forking is not trivial
* skilled and experienced (!) developers are hard to find
* we have an existing ecosystem (community, users) that can't be forked so easily
* BTS already has value, development of codebase basically pays for itself

IMO we have much to gain and little to lose from applying.

I completely agree with you.

I would add / explicit some points:

  - Bootstrapping a truly decentralized / resilient community is hard and expensive (marketing to find witnesses, organize the governance, build trust...)
  - Building a decentralized exchange when you are a centralized company has no meaning (even more if you are the unique gateway). They will waste a lot of time and effort to convince others to join. If decentralization really matters to them, it is smarter to join Bitshares platform.
  - They will benefit of our worldwide decentralized infrastructure for free.
  - They get closed source third party applications like cryptofresh, bts.ai, ... for free
  - They will benefit of existing and future liquidity like bitspark, reserve fund, and other gateway bring
  - They will be able to list to existing smart assets (bitXXX, hero, Hertz, bittwenty/bittwentix, nasdaq,...) and attract their volume for free
  - They will benefit directly from the Bitshares (DAC/Financial Platform) marketing effort, and indirectly from other business marketing.
  - Development effort could become a revenue instead of a cost! (= worker proposal).
  - The development effort and cost is mutualized with all the others participants.
  - Building open source / decentralized software is really different than doing a closed source centralized software, you need the (really rare) appropriate skills and experience on open source development, blockchain/event based systems and decentralization.
  - By applying Bitshares community show their will to accept them in the community. It is not a wise move to fork a project that share the same goal as you and propose collabration, you fork because you have different ideas.
  - They should worry about getting more time to focus on AML / KYC / tax compliance, not rebuilding what already exists.
  - They already have the bridge between the dex and their cex

I think we should show them how they could setup their BNB token with the example of cyrptobridge or obits.
It can also be the opportunity to write an open source public example on how to build a deposit/withdraw gateway.

Imho getting a big influence is currently not so costly. You don't want to own too much anyway (this will kill the decentralized aspect). 30% should be the high cap. If you are active and big, many poeple will follow you (as a proxy, or vote in your direction). So 200M BTS should be enough. You should be able to get them with 30M-40M dollars max in current market conditions, which is nothing for a serious company.

I think blockchain industry is currently too fragmented, the future will be made of merges and acquisitions not forks. It is just a matter of time to see massive takeover bids on Bitshares.

I think we should apply for the contest. Bitshares as a financial platform have been made exaclty for that.  If we don't win we should learn why and fix the issue.
Maybe it worth a community vote to see if everyone agree we should make some efforts on that direction, as this could have a major impact for the users, but also for existing business. I'm very curius to know the position of existing gateways on the topic...

Do we know why they state "Currently, decentralized exchanges are inefficient and difficult to operate for the average user."? What is their level of knowledge on Bitshares? I hope they did some research before starting this kind of project...

Once again, I agree with all the pros and the reasoning why Binance could do this.

However, I insist that there is NO way they do it without complete control over the parameters (e.g. network transaction fee etc.) which means over 51% committee.

At least if I was in their shoes, there is no way I'd embark on such a massive business venture, change my business model and move my operations to an exchange where I don't control the actual fees.


Offline zapata42

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2018, 11:03:56 am »

However, I insist that there is NO way they do it without complete control over the parameters (e.g. network transaction fee etc.) which means over 51% committee.

At least if I was in their shoes, there is no way I'd embark on such a massive business venture, change my business model and move my operations to an exchange where I don't control the actual fees.

Sure 51% of the commitee is very decentralized ;-)
Good luck to bring other business on top of your platform!

What is the definition of a Decentralized Exchanche for Binance?

Offline clockwork

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2018, 12:36:29 pm »

However, I insist that there is NO way they do it without complete control over the parameters (e.g. network transaction fee etc.) which means over 51% committee.

At least if I was in their shoes, there is no way I'd embark on such a massive business venture, change my business model and move my operations to an exchange where I don't control the actual fees.

Sure 51% of the commitee is very decentralized ;-)
Good luck to bring other business on top of your platform!

What is the definition of a Decentralized Exchanche for Binance?

I'm guessing with regards to servers, order matching etc Just generally having the entire system work p2p.

Blockchain parameters are always handled by the developers in other platforms..

I think BTS might be a step too far for them :D

Offline zapata42

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2018, 01:35:22 pm »

However, I insist that there is NO way they do it without complete control over the parameters (e.g. network transaction fee etc.) which means over 51% committee.

At least if I was in their shoes, there is no way I'd embark on such a massive business venture, change my business model and move my operations to an exchange where I don't control the actual fees.

Sure 51% of the commitee is very decentralized ;-)
Good luck to bring other business on top of your platform!

What is the definition of a Decentralized Exchanche for Binance?

I'm guessing with regards to servers, order matching etc Just generally having the entire system work p2p.

Blockchain parameters are always handled by the developers in other platforms..

I think BTS might be a step too far for them :D

To get a p2p platform you need to give an incentive to blockproducers. So they will pay for the infrastructure, and it should be more expensive than sharing this cost with other business as on Bitshares.

Also if block producers start to disagree with the centralized decision on fees, they will start to hard fork. This situation is more likely as there is no transparent decrentralized governance.

They say they want to build a community, this comes with some tradeoff...

The cashflow mecanism with the asset fee / transaction fee separation, the referral/referee program, and all are made to build a business on top on the public network. Many solutions could be found to reach an agreement. This negotiation should happen, and we should learn from the output.



Offline ripplexiaoshan

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2018, 03:32:52 pm »
Maybe they will learn from cybex---a fork of bitshares but with centralized control of everything. .Actually what their users need most is the transparency of transaction data, instead of decentralized control of system.
However, I doubt binance will start this project very soon, because they are very happy earning money with the current platform. They only want to have a backup, considering the regulation and the trend of decentralization.
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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2018, 12:49:12 pm »
Good discussion!
Keep it going


I agree with whats been said here. Big question is, does binance want a 'decenzralized exchange' or an 'autonomous execution of trades'.
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Offline Ravid

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2018, 04:32:23 pm »
Good discussion!
Keep it going


I agree with whats been said here. Big question is, does binance want a 'decenzralized exchange' or an 'autonomous execution of trades'.


Why don't we actually ask them?

Someone with enough diplomatic/technical skills could contact them and ask for additional information about their requirements and where do they aim.

Offline sschiessl

Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2018, 08:01:18 pm »
All the feedback is appreciated. It was collected and summarized into the application!

https://steemit.com/blockchain/@bitshares.fdn/bbf-applies-for-dexathon

Now we wait and see what Binance says.

Offline Customminer

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2018, 02:09:30 pm »
Have you heard anything back from them regarding your application?

We talked about this during today's Bitshares hangout BTW!
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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2018, 09:09:01 am »
Any news?

For your information, the CEO talk about his expectations on this week epicenter.tv podcast: https://epicenter.tv/episode/235/

It seems they want to build something really similar to Bitshares (DAC included).
For them performances and liquidity are the highest priority.
They also say they will promote DEX in general, and try to bring liquidity.

Offline sschiessl

Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2018, 07:34:45 pm »
No news yet.

The initial dexathon description is basically a perfect match for Bitshares. We just have to wait.

Offline Emma Lee

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Re: Binance Dexathon - Discussion
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2018, 06:16:25 pm »
Then we'll gain good PR and their future efforts will help the whole ecosystem, for example we can back-port fixes/features from them.