Author Topic: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?  (Read 949 times)

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Offline Thul3

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Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« on: September 27, 2018, 07:02:29 pm »
Can somebody enlighten me why BSIP42 is now being so quickly being implemented on bitUSD ?
You can't tell me you want to pegg bitusd to something ?
BSIP42 is experimental for bitcny so why is it already being implemented on bitUSD ?
What is the Agenda behind implementing BSIP42 on bitUSD ?
Why is a war started between witnesses who implement BSIP42 quickly on bitUSD and witnesses who refuse to make such massiv changes so quickly ?

I really would love to see some answers from xeroc and openledger who are making BSIP42 possible and if they really feel thats the right way to treat solid witnesses ?

I would love to hear what result you whish to achieve and what makes you call BSIP42 a success (defenition) that you already moved on to bitUSD without community consensus or is the experimental timeframe over?
If yes where are the results ?Info's and discussion about it ?


bitcrab :
Quote
updated witnesses voting, supported witnesses that take positive actions on implementing BSIP42 on bitUSD.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:30:49 pm by Thul3 »

Offline Thom

Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 07:41:59 pm »
I call BS on this as well. Seems the proxies are in full control and aren't interested in what community or witnesses have to say.

They aren't listening to us Thul3
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Offline paliboy

Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 08:09:31 pm »
Yup, explanation is necessary. This platform is going in wrong direction ;(

Offline fav

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 08:09:56 pm »
Such is shareoracy. Nothing you can do about
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Offline bench

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 08:20:49 pm »
The feed method should only be changed, when we have enough experience and knowledge in the CNY market.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 08:06:09 am »
The feed method should only be changed, when we have enough experience and knowledge in the CNY market.
That's what I explained to bitcrab and jademont when we met in Amsterdam - he is desperate to moving on much more quickly than most others.
Being German, I would also prefer a more conservative approach. Still in talks with bitcrab to see how this can be resolved the nice way
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Offline Customminer

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 09:23:18 am »
If BSIP42 is implemented on bitUSD, then Hertz will probably need to change its USD:BTS price reference https://github.com/BTS-CM/scripts/issues/2

Does BSIP42 apply to all smartcoins?
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 11:08:26 am »
BSIP42 allow witnesses to modify their price feeding algorithms based on the "negative feedback" concept.

to push the things forward, not only need the BSIP be passed, but also need to do coordination with witnesses.

now many witnesses understand BSIP42 well and select to apply it in bitUSD, things went well so far, I don't understand why so many people do not like this.

we need to compete with USDT, GUSD... we have not too much time to wait, just start it and watch it carefully is the right way.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 11:33:31 am »
I must confess, I am not very happy with BSIP42 being applied on bitUSD already.
However, we had a great discussion today to make everyone happy short term and strengthen the concept of bitassets in general.
Expect a new BSIP to be published next week .. To allow comparison, that particular BSIP would (for now) exclude bitCNY as I do not
intend to change experiments while they are ongoing and also to allow comparison of performance.
The new BSIP will most probably only affect bitUSD and bitEUR.
Looking forward to hear your feedback as soon as it is finished ....
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2018, 01:19:04 am »
I must confess, I am not very happy with BSIP42 being applied on bitUSD already.
However, we had a great discussion today to make everyone happy short term and strengthen the concept of bitassets in general.
Expect a new BSIP to be published next week .. To allow comparison, that particular BSIP would (for now) exclude bitCNY as I do not
intend to change experiments while they are ongoing and also to allow comparison of performance.
The new BSIP will most probably only affect bitUSD and bitEUR.
Looking forward to hear your feedback as soon as it is finished ....

then are you happy to see that bitUSD kept a >3% premium for so long time?

what's  the core idea of the planned new BSIP?  is it "keep feed price the real market price and adjust MCR dynamically"?

Offline zhangweis

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2018, 01:51:11 am »
I'm trying to exit my bitcny position. I hope I don't need to do the same on bitusd.
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Offline armin

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2018, 03:42:10 am »
why r u exiting @zhangweis

Offline zhangweis

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2018, 10:12:43 am »
why r u exiting @zhangweis

bitcny price is about 0.996 CNY(RMB) while the price feed is about 0.816/0.78 ~= 104.6% of the external exchange price and I'm in fear of black swan when a quick fall happens.
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Offline JonnyB

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2018, 01:52:51 pm »
BSIP42 = You can't settle your bit assets for their face value anymore.
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Offline yvv

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2018, 05:07:49 pm »
There is a clear conflict of interests here, which some committee members are trying to resolve by brute force in favor of their mercantile interests against of interests of many users, making bullshit excuses like "we want to improve shit blah blah blah... ". Ok, conflicts of interests are inevitable in this business, but they should not be ever resolved like this. You can do what ever you want with new contracts, but you have to respect old contracts which you already made. You can't change parameters of bit asset which you issued on a wish of your ass, PERIOD.

If this is not stopped, this would prove that dpos is a fatally flawed system, which can be easily manipulated just like mtgox.

Offline Customminer

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2018, 05:22:31 pm »
If this is not stopped, this would prove that dpos is a fatally flawed system, which can be easily manipulated just like mtgox.

To be fair, you can avoid these committee issues by creating/using a 'privatized' MPA. Bonus points for transfering asset ownership to null-account for permanent configuration. Under such conditions DPOS has no influence and thus is not flawed.
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Offline yvv

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2018, 05:30:44 pm »
If this is not stopped, this would prove that dpos is a fatally flawed system, which can be easily manipulated just like mtgox.

To be fair, you can avoid these committee issues by creating/using a 'privatized' MPA. Bonus points for transfering asset ownership to null-account for permanent configuration. Under such conditions DPOS has no influence and thus is not flawed.

No, this is not me who should create a 'privatized' MPA. A guy, who wants to change a contract terms should do this. When I bought an MPA issued by committee, I signed up for a certain terms (as many other users) and I am not happy when somebody mess them up.

Offline armin

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2018, 10:50:15 pm »
The problem is many of the parameters are not "locked in" by the code, they can be changed any time

Offline bitcrab

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2018, 03:56:01 am »
No, this is not me who should create a 'privatized' MPA. A guy, who wants to change a contract terms should do this. When I bought an MPA issued by committee, I signed up for a certain terms (as many other users) and I am not happy when somebody mess them up.

yes, the smartcoin can be seen as a contract signed by different parties, however, it is designed as changable from its born.

committee can directly change some parameters like force settlement offset.

witnesses can publish the MCR and MSSR according to their judgement.

surely the change need strong consensus from the community.

as @abit has mentioned, while drafting BSIP42, the first choice to adjusting MCR dynamically, but because of some technical problem this is not feasible, adjusting feed price is the second choice, it is a little confusing but it works.

I know some users are not happy because of this change, but I believe this change will benefit the whole system.

reviewing what had happened to bitCNY in the past several months can help to think -  because of the big premium and serious shortage, AEX and bigone removed bitCNY as a base trading currency.

it make no sense to say "keep bitUSD unchanged, create another", it is just the committee's responsibility to help the current smartcoins to evolve.

I also hope the big proxies to consider carefully on this issue, BSIP42 is not perfect, but it works, maybe we can consider another solution like fixing the MCR adjusting bug and then switch to the "dynamically adjusting MCR" way, but please let BSIP42 work before we can finish all the needed work to enable dynamic MCR.

Online binggo

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2018, 06:52:08 am »
“dynamically adjusting MCR” is not a good way too.

MSSR and Margin call is the main problem.

We can consider to use a quick force settlement function to instead of the margin call, let the market to solve the margin call, not by the system.

or other better scheme.

Offline lakerta06

Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2018, 02:42:32 pm »
Is this why current feed price is 14 usd cents, while the market price is around 11.5 usd cents. Please enlighten me.

Offline JohnR

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2018, 05:58:48 pm »
The market price is independent of the feed price unless bitUSD is 1) being voluntarily settled or 2) in forced settlement (margin call).  There is not a problem with the market price being below the feed price (necessarily).  It's been the stance of the committee (acting on the broad sentiment of the community) that bitUSD should trade within a more narrow range (tighter to 1 USD).  The higher price feed reflects an effort to reach this outcome.   

If you disagree with this then it's a great opportunity to contact your proxy or change proxies if you don't agree with their stated positions.  To that effect, it's a new issue so it is an opportunity to invite proxies to discuss their positions on what's going on.
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Offline armin

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2018, 01:57:33 am »
@bitcrab why not lower MCR to lower than 1.75 for bitCNY? Then you can leverage more and lessen the shortage

Offline bitcrab

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2018, 02:54:39 am »
Is this why current feed price is 14 usd cents, while the market price is around 11.5 usd cents. Please enlighten me.

yes, as there is still premium for bitUSD, feed priced are increased to lower the premium.

@bitcrab why not lower MCR to lower than 1.75 for bitCNY? Then you can leverage more and lessen the shortage

dynamically adjusting MCR is another way for better pegging, but 1) there's bug 2)MCR are not allowed to be lower than 1 so the effect is limited.

Offline Thul3

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2018, 06:58:11 am »
@bitcrab my i ask why you are pushing change of feedprice without announcment that there will be a change soon ?
You are changing main parameters without even feeling the need to inform the community that this kind of change will accur soon ?

You guys added 30% to the feed price.

@ witnesses Can you explain why you changed the feedprice of bitusd when there is a clearly big resistance on it for bitusd ?
What is the reason you changed the feedprice without consensus of the community and without even informing about such a change ?
Do you even not feel the need to announce such big changes to the community anymore?




Thanks Openledger,Clockwork and Verbaltech for staying strong


2 big Proxies already switched from BSIP42 YES to a NO because of bitcrabs action on BitUSD.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:04:13 am by Thul3 »

Offline xeroc

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2018, 07:06:22 am »
what's  the core idea of the planned new BSIP?  is it "keep feed price the real market price and adjust MCR dynamically"?
exactly. I know this _may_ not be as effective as moving the price feed, but it surely is a "cleaner" solution.


Ok, conflicts of interests are inevitable in this business, but they should not be ever resolved like this. You can do what ever you want with new contracts, but you have to respect old contracts which you already made. You can't change parameters of bit asset which you issued on a wish of your ass, PERIOD.
I do agree with this sentiment. My premise for supporting BSIP42 was to allow the Chinese community to experiment with bitCNY.
Extending that experiment to bitUSD already - with the appponents we have - is problematic.
Ultimately, the committee as well as the proxies are here to support the entirty of BTS holders and I feel that the major is not willing to support BSIP42 for bitUSD
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Offline armin

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Re: Somebody might enlighten me why BSIP42 on BitUSD ?
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2018, 02:06:59 am »
There seems to be a lot of disagreement because there is no clarity or measure on "how good" or successful the BSIP algorithm is. I have an idea. Why not simulate these BSIPS on the testnet with fake market bots? The results can be sped up by simply making the bots' decision making times faster. Then we have empirical evidence of what the actual effect of the BSIP is, before it actually happens on the mainnet.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 02:09:46 am by armin »