Author Topic: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY  (Read 1794 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2018, 03:51:34 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

we learned a lot in the long painful process.

if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:

1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.

2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.

we design complex solution because the world is complex.

I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.

however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:

1. dynamic MCR
2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.
3. MSSR change

I understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.

hope you can understand and help in the process.

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2018, 04:06:35 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

we learned a lot in the long painful process.

if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:

1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.

2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.

we design complex solution because the world is complex.

I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.

however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:

1. dynamic MCR
2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.
3. MSSR change

I understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.

hope you can understand and help in the process.
why don't we improve step by step?
I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.
But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me,  at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.
you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as   manipulation.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 04:50:37 am by alt »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2018, 05:15:10 am »
why don't we improve step by step?
I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.
But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me,  at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.
you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as   manipulation.

I understand that letting witness tune MCR introduce much uncertainty, so now in my mind it will be better if we can do this in another way, like:

1.witnesses just feed market price and premium.

2.system tune MCR periodically based on the fed premium, for example the rule can be: system adjust MCR every hour, if premium is inside -2%-1%, do not adjust the MCR, otherwise, tune it 0.001(start point 1.75) to according direction. 

maybe need to set max and min limit on MCR, for example 1.25-2.

however I am not sure whether this is technological possible and whether community can reach consensus on this.


Offline abit

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2018, 09:26:12 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

we learned a lot in the long painful process.

if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:

1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.
The difference is simple: increased bitCNY supply with same amount of collateral means lower collateral ratio thus higher risk, especially when in a downtrend. It's just impossible to meet all requirements / expectations.


Quote

2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.

we design complex solution because the world is complex.

I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.

however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:

1. dynamic MCR
2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.
3. MSSR change

I understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.

hope you can understand and help in the process.
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Offline Yao

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2018, 08:17:48 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)

I support reduce MSSR to 5%.

  • The simpler the rule, the more robust it is. Simply adjusting MSSR has fewer variables affecting the market.
  • MSSR reduced from 10% to 5%, the number of BTS sold by closed margin postions will be reduced by 5%, and there is still 5% arbitrage space between CEX and DEX.
  • At present, the application scenario of stable-currency is used by digital currency investors to hedge against the market when they fall. For hedging, 5% volatility is not unacceptable. We need precise anchoring only for payment.
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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2018, 12:07:27 pm »
Even though I am not convinced this approach will work, I support this as a temporary meassure until we can use the MCR more dynamically.
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Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2018, 12:34:21 pm »
you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2018, 12:37:33 pm »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)

I support reduce MSSR to 5%.

  • The simpler the rule, the more robust it is. Simply adjusting MSSR has fewer variables affecting the market.
  • MSSR reduced from 10% to 5%, the number of BTS sold by closed margin postions will be reduced by 5%, and there is still 5% arbitrage space between CEX and DEX.
  • At present, the application scenario of stable-currency is used by digital currency investors to hedge against the market when they fall. For hedging, 5% volatility is not unacceptable. We need precise anchoring only for payment.
Yes, I accept any MSSR value between 2% and 10%.
the best way is to announce reduce step by step from 10%, this can help encourage people eatern the margin call orders.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 12:40:14 pm by alt »

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2018, 12:45:53 pm »
Why do you support if you don't understand how this will work?
are you paly baby game again?

Even though I am not convinced this approach will work, I support this as a temporary meassure until we can use the MCR more dynamically.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2018, 12:47:03 pm »
you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

if this poll get more support than 1.4.119, trader will know that bitCNY will not have a 10% premium, they know what to do.
maybe bitCNY holders will regret to lose chance to buy cheaper BTS, but it benefit the whole ecosystem as BTS need not to reach lower price and traders need not to suffer high premium of bitCNY.
this method is far from perfect, hope you can participate more in the discussion of the alternative solution of BSIP42.

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2018, 12:53:39 pm »

you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

if this poll get more support than 1.4.119, trader will know that bitCNY will not have a 10% premium, they know what to do.
maybe bitCNY holders will regret to lose chance to buy cheaper BTS, but it benefit the whole ecosystem as BTS need not to reach lower price and traders need not to suffer high premium of bitCNY.
this method is far from perfect, hope you can participate more in the discussion of the alternative solution of BSIP42.
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2018, 02:51:27 pm »
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

higher feed price/lower MCR means user can borrow more bitCNY with the same collateral.that's how it increase the supply.

witnesses has the logic that feed price depending on the market price and premium, not to feed price at will.

 

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pm »
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

higher feed price/lower MCR means user can borrow more bitCNY with the same collateral.that's how it increase the supply.

witnesses has the logic that feed price depending on the market price and premium, not to feed price at will.
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2018, 07:10:53 am »
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

I haven't seen any serious central bank has reduce interest rate first and increase rate at the next second, interest rate is an important tool for central bank to push the currency policy.

whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

whether borrowing is safe not only depend on the market, but also on the rule.
one simple example/logic: at the time that bitCNY is in high premium as of now, when MCR is reduced, one can borrow say 100K bitCNY and get 102K CNY, when premium go down to -1%, MCR return to high level, he can buy 103KbitCNY with 102KCNY, pay the 100K debt and get 3K as profit.

does this business make sense? yes, one can make profit with it, and help to balance the ecosystem.

why not encourage this kind of business?

« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:12:37 am by bitcrab »

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 am »
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

I haven't seen any serious central bank has reduce interest rate first and increase rate at the next second, interest rate is an important tool for central bank to push the currency policy.
so why witness can decrease MCR today while increase tomorrow even without an previous anouncement? MCR is even more important than interest rate. it can make margin call happen directely without price change.
If MCR unstable like this, could you regard decrease MCR as a safe signal to borrow more money?
Quote
whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

whether borrowing is safe not only depend on the market, but also on the rule.
one simple example/logic: at the time that bitCNY is in high premium as of now, when MCR is reduced, one can borrow say 100K bitCNY and get 102K CNY, when premium go down to -1%, MCR return to high level, he can buy 103KbitCNY with 102KCNY, pay the 100K debt and get 3K as profit.

does this business make sense? yes, one can make profit with it, and help to balance the ecosystem.

why not encourage this kind of business?
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 08:59:38 am by alt »