Author Topic: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY  (Read 1791 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bitcrab

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: bitcrab
  • GitHub: bitcrab
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2018, 09:22:25 am »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
Email´╝Ü[email protected]

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2681
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2018, 09:46:40 am »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

Offline yamtt

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2018, 09:52:19 am »
Support for gradual reduction of MSSR Until 105%

Offline clockwork

  • Committee member
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: clockwork
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2018, 09:58:31 am »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

Those were my thoughts as well which is why I suggested limiting the possible dynamic movement of MCR/MSSR.

If you know that MCR will NEVER go above 2.0 for example, you just keep it over 2.0 and be just as safe.

A brief/rough description is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958

Offline Thom

Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2018, 06:06:35 pm »
why don't we improve step by step?
I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.
But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me,  at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.
you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as   manipulation.

I understand that letting witness tune MCR introduce much uncertainty, so now in my mind it will be better if we can do this in another way, like:

1.witnesses just feed market price and premium.

2.system tune MCR periodically based on the fed premium, for example the rule can be: system adjust MCR every hour, if premium is inside -2%-1%, do not adjust the MCR, otherwise, tune it 0.001(start point 1.75) to according direction. 

maybe need to set max and min limit on MCR, for example 1.25-2.

however I am not sure whether this is technological possible and whether community can reach consensus on this.

This sounds like the most reasonable proposal I've seen from you @bitcrab:
- it requires honest market price reporting
- it sets limits on MCR adjustment
- preserves baseline collateral at 1.75

Clearly trade-offs are required between various "feed factions" that want their advantage / opinions implemented. This is easier to understand, easier for witnesses. Will it work?

Depends on the goals you have. We need to define those, otherwise we'll all vacillate between appeasing one camp or another.
Main things we need to define is what is minimum safety - i.e. absolute limits on MCR and how tight the peg must be held.
Another consideration is do we need to define different sets of limits when market is "volatile", and how to define what metrics to use to say market is volatile. You could define criteria that sets a boolean "isVolatile" flag, or, it could be an analog value from 0 (stable) to 1 (volatile). Perhaps this is same or similar to what is now labeled "premium". Can't say I understand how "premium" is calculated and what factors are involved. 

Also, why not publish a report to describe all this great knowledge learned from experimentation so we ALL can learn? Still waiting on that. If you've learned so much please summarize these "golden lessons" for those of us with lessor economic skills. Please help raise our understanding with a summary.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bench

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 09:05:45 pm »
Variable MCR (1.5-2) should result in less margin calls. MCR of 1.25 is too low for the market.

After a price drop we can lower the MCR to 1.5 and reduce premiums, after a price rise the premium should get lower and MCR can rise without getting additional margin calls. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 09:14:38 pm by bench »

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2681
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 11:57:32 pm »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

Those were my thoughts as well which is why I suggested limiting the possible dynamic movement of MCR/MSSR.

If you know that MCR will NEVER go above 2.0 for example, you just keep it over 2.0 and be just as safe.

A brief/rough description is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958
But if people just keep it over 2.0, what's the meaning of reduse MCR to 1.75/1.5? Did reduce MCR really increase the supply?
For a rational trader, they have their own reasonable leverage which must bigger than the highest MCR  which are allowed to use.
only those high risk debt could be affected by MCR, they will borrow as more as possible, then there is a high possibility they will lose everything.
Should we and can we increase the supply by these high risk debts?
In general, I still hold the view that we just need a stable MCR, if we really need to adjustment, an announcemant several days in advance should be given.

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2681
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2018, 12:04:43 am »
another fact I need to talk is that the improved algorithm of margin call(sell part)  make the sell smooth, this can encourage people buy margin call order, reduce the blackswan risk.
the lower MCR given, the low effect from this new alogrithm. it will totally lose effect when MCR reduce to 1.