Author Topic: Introduce CEX in governance?  (Read 669 times)

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Online bitcrab

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Introduce CEX in governance?
« on: April 03, 2019, 04:59:29 am »
It is always bad that one single person control too much BTS, either the person is alt or me. as in a DPoS blockchain tokens means voting power.

Obviously, the current voting power distribution in top proxies is out of balance, the governance is no longer as healthy as we have expected.



I am considering to introduce some CEX into the governance of BTS, as shown above, generally top proxies and top CEXs own comparative voting power, introducing more voting power can help to balance the current power whale and help to make the governance more healthy.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 05:14:02 am by bitcrab »

Online binggo

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 05:08:55 am »
GOOD!

The voting power must be balance.

Offline sschiessl

Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2019, 05:56:24 am »
I don't think that pandora's box should be opened.

First question that comes to mind:
 - who educates the CEX in the governance of the bitshares blockchain
 - who educates the CEX in the proposals which might be very technical?
 - who will be lobbying in terms of what to vote for and what not?

Offline Thul3

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2019, 06:53:59 am »
Disagree
Quote
It is always bad that one single person control too much BTS, either the person is alt or me. as in a DPoS blockchain tokens means voting power.
If you need more voting power get more people activ.

I remember questioning over a year ago your centralised power and your answer was very clear to me.Get more BTS or holders supporting you (and noone disagreed with that).

I understand some people are unhappy with the 400k refund fund but thats not a reason to create a new voting system just because someone isn't voting in your favour (like reduce of MCR for bitcny).

Would alt be voting in your favour i highly doubt you would open that thread.
Also opening that thread where you lost that "centralised" power instead of opening when you had it gives it instantly a bad touch.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 06:58:25 am by Thul3 »

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 07:16:09 am »
I'd also prefer to have *more* proxies with medium voting power than fewer ones with huge voting power.
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Online bitcrab

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2019, 07:18:37 am »
Would alt be voting in your favour i highly doubt you would open that thread.

right, if alt voting in MCR change I will not open this thread.

because what I care most is how to get things done, how to push BTS' evolution.

Online bitcrab

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 07:22:29 am »
I'd also prefer to have *more* proxies with medium voting power than fewer ones with huge voting power.

agree, but when there is whale proxy we have to cope with it. otherwise the evolution of BTS will stop.

Online bitcrab

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2019, 07:29:36 am »
I don't think that pandora's box should be opened.

First question that comes to mind:
 - who educates the CEX in the governance of the bitshares blockchain
 - who educates the CEX in the proposals which might be very technical?
 - who will be lobbying in terms of what to vote for and what not?

not a problem, I can do that for the CEXs in China, including but not limited to binance, huobi, ZB.

Offline Thul3

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2019, 07:34:59 am »
Quote
because what I care most is how to get things done, how to push BTS' evolution.

You are aware that it was your past actions (to get things done your way) which created the whale bhaozi and made tons of people leave bitshares?



Quote
I'd also prefer to have *more* proxies with medium voting power than fewer ones with huge voting power.

Would it even be possible ?Alt could split his voting power to diffrent accounts or even diffrent people supporting his views and they would instantly get top proxies.


Quote
and top CEXs own comparative voting power,
I guess you haven't thought what you would open here.
TOP CEX's are going to rape bitshares at any possible way just to make quick profit and they don't do small rape profit.
sschiessl named it the right way opening the pandora box.


« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 07:54:37 am by Thul3 »

Online binggo

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2019, 07:46:28 am »
Disagree
Quote
It is always bad that one single person control too much BTS, either the person is alt or me. as in a DPoS blockchain tokens means voting power.
If you need more voting power get more people activ.

I remember questioning over a year ago your centralised power and your answer was very clear to me.Get more BTS or holders supporting you (and noone disagreed with that).

I understand some people are unhappy with the 400k refund fund but thats not a reason to create a new voting system just because someone isn't voting in your favour (like reduce of MCR for bitcny).

Would alt be voting in your favour i highly doubt you would open that thread.
Also opening that thread where you lost that "centralised" power instead of opening when you had it gives it instantly a bad touch.

what's now? so?

The voting power is almost in the CEX, so how you can get the people back to DEX? or you have a better way which can push something forward, please give your solution.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 07:58:12 am by binggo »

Offline jackingyang

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2019, 08:06:02 am »
Would alt be voting in your favour i highly doubt you would open that thread.

right, if alt voting in MCR change I will not open this thread.

because what I care most is how to get things done, how to push BTS' evolution.
Touched me……

Offline alt

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2019, 08:18:36 am »
You are aware that it was your past actions (to get things done your way) which created the whale bhaozi and made tons of people leave bitshares?
yes, it's BSIP18 and BSIP42 make me the whales.
And I have warnning many times, these two changes are totally unreasonable.
I close BTSBots because of BSIP18 which make SILVER's price 3 times.
I got many profit from these two BSIP just prove the system mistake.
Quote
Would it even be possible ?Alt could split his voting power to diffrent accounts or even diffrent people supporting his views and they would instantly get top proxies.
In fact I have wait a long time to give part of my vote power to another one who is trusted, but I can't find it from the top proxy currently.
If you are interesting to be the proxy, give me the account name, I'm glad to set you as my proxy.

Offline jackingyang

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2019, 09:03:24 am »
You are aware that it was your past actions (to get things done your way) which created the whale bhaozi and made tons of people leave bitshares?
yes, it's BSIP18 and BSIP42 make me the whales.
And I have warnning many times, these two changes are totally unreasonable.
I close BTSBots because of BSIP18 which make SILVER's price 3 times.
I got many profit from these two BSIP just prove the system mistake.
Quote
Would it even be possible ?Alt could split his voting power to diffrent accounts or even diffrent people supporting his views and they would instantly get top proxies.
In fact I have wait a long time to give part of my vote power to another one who is trusted, but I can't find it from the top proxy currently.
If you are interesting to be the proxy, give me the account name, I'm glad to set you as my proxy.

Bitcrab's motivation is good. You should work with Bitcrab to promote the evolution of bts.

Offline jackingyang

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2019, 09:04:03 am »
You are aware that it was your past actions (to get things done your way) which created the whale bhaozi and made tons of people leave bitshares?
yes, it's BSIP18 and BSIP42 make me the whales.
And I have warnning many times, these two changes are totally unreasonable.
I close BTSBots because of BSIP18 which make SILVER's price 3 times.
I got many profit from these two BSIP just prove the system mistake.
Quote
Would it even be possible ?Alt could split his voting power to diffrent accounts or even diffrent people supporting his views and they would instantly get top proxies.
In fact I have wait a long time to give part of my vote power to another one who is trusted, but I can't find it from the top proxy currently.
If you are interesting to be the proxy, give me the account name, I'm glad to set you as my proxy.
Please……

Online bitcrab

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2019, 09:04:20 am »
Quote
because what I care most is how to get things done, how to push BTS' evolution.

You are aware that it was your past actions (to get things done your way) which created the whale bhaozi and made tons of people leave bitshares?



Quote
I'd also prefer to have *more* proxies with medium voting power than fewer ones with huge voting power.

Would it even be possible ?Alt could split his voting power to diffrent accounts or even diffrent people supporting his views and they would instantly get top proxies.


Quote
and top CEXs own comparative voting power,
I guess you haven't thought what you would open here.
TOP CEX's are going to rape bitshares at any possible way just to make quick profit and they don't do small rape profit.
sschiessl named it the right way opening the pandora box.

if you think MCR reduction will also bring disaster to BTS, you can try your best to lobby proxies to vote against it, no problem.

if CEX can rape bitshares if they want, then BTS does not worth existing in this world.

sooner or later, CEXs will enter the BTS governance ecosystem, now we need them, just let them in now.

Offline clockwork

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2019, 09:17:42 am »
I agree with Stefan on this.

We don't wanna open that box.

CEXs do not have BitShares best interest at heart (they are competitors after all)
They do not follow our governance and have no idea what is going on in the ecosystem

Thus  their voting would be totally biased and uninformed.

Then you say that "Don't worry, I'll tell them what to vote". How is that different than them setting you as proxy and being back at square one regarding centralisation of voting?

And that's not an attack at yourself. I trust your intentions regarding the wellbeing of BTS greatly. Still, it just promotes further centralisation.

I'd rather have us all work towards getting more people involved and voting instead to fix this.

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2019, 09:24:26 am »
There should be a collective push from all sides of community to create a decent platform for people to promote themselves as proxies. A social media style website with proxy profiles and easy voting, perhaps with Beet used so a click on the website alters the blockchain.

Some kind of incentive should also be considered to get more people to become proxies where you benefit from gaining proxy votes and loose benefits for losing weight for example.

There is a lot of BTS in circulation that is not voting, we need to incentevise voting.

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Offline clockwork

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2019, 09:34:36 am »
There should be a collective push from all sides of community to create a decent platform for people to promote themselves as proxies. A social media style website with proxy profiles and easy voting, perhaps with Beet used so a click on the website alters the blockchain.

Working on this for committee and I believe stefan is working on it for workers.

And I agree...it would be huge for involvement

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2019, 09:36:47 am »
I will also add that i agree with steffan that getting centralised exchanges involved is not a good idea.

We have big whale voters in bitshares, often many of us disagree with them. I have disagreed many times with bitcrab and alt on various things but understand it is just a difference in opinion and that both want bitshares to succeed.

We are often more vocal on things we disagree with than things we agree with but we are one community, we should keep voting in the community and not include CEX, they do not have our best interest at heart.

We need a more competitive platform for proxies, the answer is to get more community involved in actively voting.





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Online binggo

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2019, 09:45:58 am »
I think the CEX can set the proxy to a multi-signature account which was controlled by all the committees.

this maybe make the voting power go to banlance again.

how about that?

Offline jackingyang

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2019, 09:52:09 am »
You are aware that it was your past actions (to get things done your way) which created the whale bhaozi and made tons of people leave bitshares?
yes, it's BSIP18 and BSIP42 make me the whales.
And I have warnning many times, these two changes are totally unreasonable.
I close BTSBots because of BSIP18 which make SILVER's price 3 times.
I got many profit from these two BSIP just prove the system mistake.
Quote
Would it even be possible ?Alt could split his voting power to diffrent accounts or even diffrent people supporting his views and they would instantly get top proxies.
In fact I have wait a long time to give part of my vote power to another one who is trusted, but I can't find it from the top proxy currently.
If you are interesting to be the proxy, give me the account name, I'm glad to set you as my proxy.
It's a bad idea to introduce cex. I hope you can communicate with bitcrab and work together to solve the problem.

Offline Thul3

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2019, 09:57:36 am »
Quote
It's a bad idea to introduce cex. I hope you can communicate with bitcrab and work together to solve the problem.
I doubt the majority of stack holders would ever allow cex to get free voting rights.

Offline clockwork

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2019, 09:58:06 am »
I think the CEX can set the proxy to a multi-signature account which was controlled by all the committees.

this maybe make the voting power go to banlance again.

how about that?

That would only work if the committee-account started voting and became a proxy. With the power of CEX votes behind it, the committee members could pretty much vote themselves in for life.

Not a good idea. Solves one problem but introduces another.....Unless we could modify consensus to NOT allow committee-account to vote on committee members.

If that was the case then yes, essentially CEX stake is controlled by the committee which is controlled by the rest of the voting stake thus making it fairer. But we can't allow committee-account to vote for committee under any circumstances.

Online bitcrab

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2019, 10:00:19 am »
I think the CEX can set the proxy to a multi-signature account which was controlled by all the committees.

this maybe make the voting power go to banlance again.

how about that?

but I don't think CEX would like to do so.

they would like to get their interest, for example, they may want to have their own witness voted up.

I don't think they will vote with bias, actually normally they may do not vote at all, they will only vote when they are told the necessity and they understand well.

actually there are some fans of Bitshares among CEX bosses.

 

Offline Bangzi

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2019, 10:12:18 am »
If compare to EOS, Bitshares witness pay not attractive enough for CEX to come in and vote for worker proposal actively.

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Online bitcrab

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2019, 01:51:12 pm »
If compare to EOS, Bitshares witness pay not attractive enough for CEX to come in and vote for worker proposal actively.

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suppose BTS price go up to above 10 CNY, will the reward be attractive enough?

if still not, how about 20CNY?

I am not joking, if we want bitCNY be a wildly used stable coin, we need enough supply, and need enough high BTS price.

target CR, GS protection, MSSR reduction, MCR reduction, close short, if we are satified with the current BTS price and bitCNY adoption domain, why we do or plan to do these?

definitely the witness reward will be attractive, and CEX will come.

Bitshares is public blockchain, we cannot say "you are not allowed to vote".

so it will be better to introduce them earlier.

CEX and DEX can not only compete, but also cooperate.

huobi and Bitfinex both develop DEX on EOS, we need not to isolate ourselves.





Offline jackingyang

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2019, 12:18:01 am »
Baozi's votes have shrunk

Offline Thul3

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2019, 07:10:32 pm »
First CEX entered as Proxy and applying for witness using their members deposit for voting..Already voted for major parameters on bitshares.

I won't support those CEX as they don't have BTS which where delegeted to CEX as their proxies and i also don't consider them as bitshares community.
I do not wish that any exchange where i got my own BTS deposited uses them to make votings with them without my consent or which are against my belives.

@bitcrab you just opened the pandoras box where soon CEX will decide nearly about everything since communities vote won't matter anymore.That is not a decentralised solution at all and very unethical.


Quote
Then you say that "Don't worry, I'll tell them what to vote". How is that different than them setting you as proxy and being back at square one regarding centralisation of voting?

And that's not an attack at yourself. I trust your intentions regarding the wellbeing of BTS greatly. Still, it just promotes further centralisation.

@bitcrab what final benefit do you want to achieve getting CEX involved on bitshares which makes basicly communities voting power worthless?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 08:15:57 pm by Thul3 »

Offline alt

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2019, 12:55:33 am »
I think it's a good thing for BTS if any CEX want to participate community more deeply, they can really care about BTS community.
And it's acceptable for me any CEX can vote, only when they have a clearly notification to each BTS trader, something like: "I will vote with your shares, if you don't agree my choise, don't trade in my exchange."
it's a cheating if they didn't mention clearly.

what I really care about is not who vote, but if these share owners who involved the vote have their own brain.
It's a bad thing if the CEX's customers give their vote power to CEX but without their own brain. they didn't care about what they vote.
Just as bad as sometimes some proxy said " I didn't known how it work, but I trust xxx, so I voted".
the lesson we  should learned from BSIP42 is not why BSIP42 failed, but why BSIP42 is approved.
It's acceptable for me anybody can make any mistake because of knowledge limit. but it's not acceptable for me that all others support the mistake without brain.

I saw zb have already involved the vote, wish they will really help BTS growth, and give a clear notification about vote in the website.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 01:03:17 am by alt »

Offline alt

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2019, 01:01:36 am »
and I saw beos began to vote
I think they should declare that only those BTS owner who give out the vote power can get airdrop.
or it is a cheating, it's STANEOS instead of BEOS

I think it's a good thing for BTS if any CEX want to participate community more deeply, they can really care about BTS community.
And it's acceptable for me any CEX can vote, only when they have a clearly notification to each BTS trader, something like: "I will vote with your shares, if you don't agree my choise, don't trade in my exchange."
it's a cheating if they didn't mention clearly.

what I really care about is not who vote, but if these share owners who involved the vote have their own brain.
It's a bad thing if the CEX's customers give their vote power to CEX but without their own brain. they didn't care about what they vote.
Just as bad as sometimes some proxy said " I didn't known how it work, but I trust xxx, so I voted".
the lesson we  should earned from BSIP42 is not why BSIP42 failed, but why BSIP42 is approved.
It's acceptable for me anybody can make any mistake because of knowledge limit. but it's not acceptable for me that all others support the mistake without brain.

I saw zb have already involved the vote, wish they will really help BTS growth, and give a clear notification about vote in the website.

Offline pc

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2019, 05:57:35 am »
I think they should declare that only those BTS owner who give out the vote power can get airdrop.

Actually they do mention this explicitly in their terms. You have to actually read them to see it of course. :-)
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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2019, 06:02:09 am »
I think it's a good thing for BTS if any CEX want to participate community more deeply, they can really care about BTS community.
And it's acceptable for me any CEX can vote, only when they have a clearly notification to each BTS trader, something like: "I will vote with your shares, if you don't agree my choise, don't trade in my exchange."
it's a cheating if they didn't mention clearly.

what I really care about is not who vote, but if these share owners who involved the vote have their own brain.
It's a bad thing if the CEX's customers give their vote power to CEX but without their own brain. they didn't care about what they vote.
Just as bad as sometimes some proxy said " I didn't known how it work, but I trust xxx, so I voted".
It's acceptable for me anybody can make any mistake because of knowledge limit. but it's not acceptable for me that all others support the mistake without brain.

I saw zb have already involved the vote, wish they will really help BTS growth, and give a clear notification about vote in the website.

I agree with this sentiment. New players can be beneficial. The only addition that I would see is "communications and activity with the community".
Communications because every idea (like BSIP42) needs to be discussed, formed, modified and those that vote should establish an opinion about what they are voting for (or not voting for)
Activity because it would hurt the ecosystem if a voter voted for a stale witness and doesn't take the time to correct their votes.

Other then that, I am curious to see how this plays out long term.
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Offline Valera Cogut

Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2019, 08:04:37 am »
Quote
In fact I have wait a long time to give part of my vote power to another one who is trusted, but I can't find it from the top proxy currently.
If you are interesting to be the proxy, give me the account name, I'm glad to set you as my proxy.

Make me your proxy if you wish and vote for me as committee member please, my account is: valera-committee

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27797.0

Thank you !
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 08:06:17 am by Valera Cogut »

Offline Customminer

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2019, 11:43:27 am »
No thanks. CEX shouldn't vote with the funds users deposit onto their system. If they want to be more involved then they should create their own gateway on the BTS DEX.

Offline Thul3

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Re: Introduce CEX in governance?
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2019, 07:32:09 pm »
Quote
CEXs do not have BitShares best interest at heart (they are competitors after all)
They do not follow our governance and have no idea what is going on in the ecosystem

Thus  their voting would be totally biased and uninformed.

Then you say that "Don't worry, I'll tell them what to vote". How is that different than them setting you as proxy and being back at square one regarding centralisation of voting?

And that's not an attack at yourself. I trust your intentions regarding the wellbeing of BTS greatly. Still, it just promotes further centralisation.

I'd rather have us all work towards getting more people involved and voting instead to fix this.


And here it goes.
ZB now also voting committee members.Of course the trio bitcrab,jademont and abit .
How often have i heard these names as trio ?

Of course they used now also the votes to add bitcrab additional votes as witness.

A nice trojan horse of bitcrab again to increase his voting power by
"Don't worry, I'll tell them what to vote". How is that different than them setting you as proxy and being back at square one regarding centralisation of voting?"


Based on that i will remove my voting on these members as committee as i see that voting as unfair.The same goes with witness gdex-witness (which caused now by the way that a 110 million stake  is voting to have only 2 witnesses in total ,showing how much "they" understand about the voting system of bitshares)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 09:11:58 pm by Thul3 »