Author Topic: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01  (Read 1478 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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[Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« on: April 16, 2019, 06:04:35 pm »
As MSSR values, 1% and 2% are different at:

1. 1% will lead to better pegging at time while margin call price impact the expectation on BTS price.

2. 1% reduce the benefits of shorting BTS in half.

3. lower MSSR will make the margin call orders a little more difficult to be eaten. and may lead to some risk accumulation.


Please find BSIP59 Doc: https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/blob/master/bsip-0059.md for detailed info of BSIP59.

Two worker proposals have been created for this poll:

1.14.181   Poll - BSIP59 - Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01

1.14.169   Poll - BSIP59 - Do Not Reduce MSSR of bitCNY

please consider the 2 choices carefully before you vote.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

update:

As 1.14.169 expired, a new WP is created to replace it:

1.14.191   Poll - BSIP59 - Do Not Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01

If you are against to reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01, please vote 1.14.191
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 02:58:19 am by bitcrab »

Offline matle85

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2019, 07:24:51 pm »
The biggest risk to smartcoins is margin orders not being eaten (in my view) so I disagree with this proposal.

If anything I would prefer to see MSSR increased.

Online binggo

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2019, 10:51:55 pm »
support MSSR=101%,

MSSR can't determine the margin call be eaten or not.

Offline alt

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 11:57:01 pm »
I will not support reduce MSSR less than 1.02.
sure we need to keep some profit space for those who help eat the margin call order.
I saw some people want to reduce MSSR because they think feed price is too lower than it should be,
they should try to change feed price instead of change MSSR. there is big different between these two problem.

Offline dirnet

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2019, 02:57:41 am »
I will not support reduce MSSR less than 1.02.
sure we need to keep some profit space for those who help eat the margin call order.
I saw some people want to reduce MSSR because they think feed price is too lower than it should be,
they should try to change feed price instead of change MSSR. there is big different between these two problem.
agree

Offline ljk424

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2019, 05:29:08 am »
我虽然不是大户,但是想替大户说句心声:我坚决反对mssr低于1.02,这样会使内盘做空成本增加,难以大量收获低价筹码,甚至导致BTS市值增加,我手上的bitcny、bitusd踏空,严重助长社区散户士气,损害大户收割散户利益,坚决抵制MSSR,坚决反对BTS价格上升,坚决反对BTS市值增加!!!!!

Offline xeroc

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2019, 07:50:02 am »
We have just reduced it down to 1.02. I would like to see how it works in all market conditions, bull and bear. We've hardly had any market movement since the last change.

No support for now
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2019, 01:16:22 pm »
I will not support reduce MSSR less than 1.02.
sure we need to keep some profit space for those who help eat the margin call order.
I saw some people want to reduce MSSR because they think feed price is too lower than it should be,
they should try to change feed price instead of change MSSR. there is big different between these two problem.

I agree that price feed problem and MSSR problem are different and need different ways to solve.

but after so long time practice,  I think we should understand more deeply on the margin call rule sets.

first, can we just ragard the profit space for eating margin call orders as same as "MSSR-1"?

No, actually when the debt position is margin called/the collateral is forced to be sold, the profit space for eating margin call/the punishment to debt position owners is there.

even if MSSR = 1.

because if you are provided the rights to buy some volume of BTS at the current market price, don't you think this right worth some money?

the same logic that trader need to pay for American options.

and what we can see clearly is that, either we set MSSR=1.1 or 1.02 does not determine whether the margin call orders be eaten or not, the more important factor is market sentiment.

the disadvantage of high MSSR is that, it benefit more on shorting BTS, and then encourage traders to short BTS.

so my ideas on MSSR setting is, MSSR should be greater or equal to 1, the lower, the better.

for bitCNY, 1.02 is a value that do not lead to "margin call orders not eaten" phenomena, it's time to consider to reduce MSSR more, to discourage shorters, to ensure better pegging.

for bitUSD, 1.02 is a value that margin call orders always stay there without being eaten, so no need to consider to reduce MSSR currently.



Offline alt

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2019, 01:48:32 pm »
Set MSSR to 1.02 provide an optunity that anybody can make profit by buy bitCNY with fiat CNY at price 1.0 while sell at 1.02.
This could help increase the fund to provide bitCNY/fiat CNY liquidlity. when there are enough fund participate, competition will decrease the spread.

I known what you really concern is to increase the supply of bitCNY, but it can't give too many help with decrease MSSR, 
the purpose to decrease MSSR from 1.1 to 1.02 is just decrease the premium of bitCNY, and it works.
the only way can help increase the supply is provide more real money support BTS.

I will not support reduce MSSR less than 1.02.
sure we need to keep some profit space for those who help eat the margin call order.
I saw some people want to reduce MSSR because they think feed price is too lower than it should be,
they should try to change feed price instead of change MSSR. there is big different between these two problem.

I agree that price feed problem and MSSR problem are different and need different ways to solve.

but after so long time practice,  I think we should understand more deeply on the margin call rule sets.

first, can we just ragard the profit space for eating margin call orders as same as "MSSR-1"?

No, actually when the debt position is margin called/the collateral is forced to be sold, the profit space for eating margin call/the punishment to debt position owners is there.

even if MSSR = 1.

because if you are provided the rights to buy some volume of BTS at the current market price, don't you think this right worth some money?

the same logic that trader need to pay for American options.

and what we can see clearly is that, either we set MSSR=1.1 or 1.02 does not determine whether the margin call orders be eaten or not, the more important factor is market sentiment.

the disadvantage of high MSSR is that, it benefit more on shorting BTS, and then encourage traders to short BTS.

so my ideas on MSSR setting is, MSSR should be greater or equal to 1, the lower, the better.

for bitCNY, 1.02 is a value that do not lead to "margin call orders not eaten" phenomena, it's time to consider to reduce MSSR more, to discourage shorters, to ensure better pegging.

for bitUSD, 1.02 is a value that margin call orders always stay there without being eaten, so no need to consider to reduce MSSR currently.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 01:55:47 pm by alt »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2019, 10:42:37 am »
the only way can help increase the supply is provide more real money support BTS.

this statement is 100% correct but senseless.

rules are like tubes, funds are like water, to which direction will the water flow depend on how the tube is designed.

everyone knows that the ecosystem need real money to support, but as a system designer, what we need to consider is how to design the tubes well, then the water will be directed to the BTS ecosystem from outside.

what we need to do is to optimize the rules, to make it more friendly to BTS longers,  less friendly to BTS shorters, and of course, based on the base financial principles.

what we have done on this way:

introduce target CR.
reduce MSSR
increase force settlement offset.

what we can do in the future:

reduce MCR
reduce MSSR continually
introduce "close short" feature.
...

I think you just experienced what's the difference that MSSR=1.1 and MSSR=1.02 can make, the big price fall in 11th April is relevant to high MSSR and your big USD debt position, if MSSR has been reduced to 1.02 before that day, I think it's highly possible that the big price fall will not happen.

and the change from 1.02 to 1.01 also make sense, it reduce the profit expectation for shortening BTS.
 

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2019, 12:05:06 pm »
reduce MCR
reduce MSSR continually
introduce "close short" feature.
...

Another option to add is

* dynamic MSSR that depends on the collateral ratio. think: once your position hits MCR, your MSSR is 100% .. if your got down further, say to 150%, then the MSSR grows to 130% ..

That way, people that keep track of their margins won't pay high penalty, while those that don't are paying higher a penalty fee.
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Online binggo

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2019, 12:50:52 pm »
Another option to add is

* dynamic MSSR that depends on the collateral ratio. think: once your position hits MCR, your MSSR is 100% .. if your got down further, say to 150%, then the MSSR grows to 130% ..

That way, people that keep track of their margins won't pay high penalty, while those that don't are paying higher a penalty fee.

if have this rule, then the market will dead soon,this is not kidding, bitcny market will no body come in.

I don't think dynamic MSSR and MCR directly is a good idea, they are very harmful to the market.

Two options:

1.Make the settlement offset vary with CR;
https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/issues/160

2.Seperate the Margin Call Ratio and the Maintenance collateral ratio.

The Margin call ratio mean:
if the Maintenance CR is 1.75, the margin call ratio is 1.6, people can't make their CR to 1.6, only can make their CR to 1.75. When their CR below 1.6, they will be margin called.

We can set a range of the margin call ratio from 1.6 to 1.35, people can change their margin call ratio from 1.6 to 1.35 as they wish.

When the price drop down 8.5%, the margin call could only happen at 1.6, as the Market Rebounds always, this provides the market with a large buffer as prices fall again.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 01:09:28 pm by binggo »

Offline sahkan

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2019, 11:45:51 pm »
the only way can help increase the supply is provide more real money support BTS.
what we need to do is to optimize the rules, to make it more friendly to BTS longers,  less friendly to BTS shorters, and of course, based on the base financial principles.

what we have done on this way:

introduce target CR.
reduce MSSR
increase force settlement offset.

what we can do in the future:

reduce MCR
reduce MSSR continually
introduce "close short" feature.
...
The point of view definitely depends or whether or not you are long or short on BTS. We have done already a lot to protect longs and continue to short change the shorts and endanger the smartcoin eco system. Things that we have done on bitCNY to help protect longs:
- Reduce MSSR from 10% to 2% (That's 8% loss reduction during a margin call)
- Increase the force settlement offset from 1% to 2%
- and got the feed pricing down to 1-2% variation

Risks and things that longs can control:
2% MSSR during margin call - but if the longs positions are proper collateral this should not happen
They stake the BTS so they hold all the voting power

Risks and things shorters control:
- They can buy margin calls for a 2% profit (if those happen)
- They can force settle their position for a 2% loss (but 24 wait makes the final outcome uncertain), if the feed prices are within 1-2% from the exchange that longs use, there is no loss to the longs at the time of the settlement but they might realize a small profit.
- Smartcoin holders get ZERO voting power so they rely on the BTS holders to keep the DEX balanced
- And at the end, if the MSSR is too low, margin call will not be bought and it will lead to the global settlement, once again minimizing any loss for longs and shifting it to shorts

I believe if we continue to squeeze the MSSR and MCR it will eventually make the smartcoin useless and people will stay away from using them.

If we all agree that MSSR should be 0%, MCR at 1.0 and force settlement as high as we can (100%?), we should be able to get everyone creating some bitCNY, but who is going to buy it? I would rather see a bit smaller MCR than non-existent MSSR.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 03:11:15 am »
If we all agree that MSSR should be 0%, MCR at 1.0 and force settlement as high as we can (100%?), we should be able to get everyone creating some bitCNY, but who is going to buy it? I would rather see a bit smaller MCR than non-existent MSSR.

you misunderstood what I mean. I don't forget the basic financial principle.

I don't think MCR can be reduced to 1, in my view, it is possible to go down to say 1.5 or 1.4 and stay there without going down.

MSSR is possible to go to 1, but need step by step.

force settlement offset is not supposed to go as high as possible, I don't think there is a "the higher, the better" logic for this offset, actually, now 2% for bitCNY is as low as possible, as up to now we do not have an always reliable feed price.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 03:13:19 am by bitcrab »

Offline sahkan

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 04:29:30 am »
If we all agree that MSSR should be 0%, MCR at 1.0 and force settlement as high as we can (100%?), we should be able to get everyone creating some bitCNY, but who is going to buy it? I would rather see a bit smaller MCR than non-existent MSSR.

you misunderstood what I mean. I don't forget the basic financial principle.

I don't think MCR can be reduced to 1, in my view, it is possible to go down to say 1.5 or 1.4 and stay there without going down.

MSSR is possible to go to 1, but need step by step.

force settlement offset is not supposed to go as high as possible, I don't think there is a "the higher, the better" logic for this offset, actually, now 2% for bitCNY is as low as possible, as up to now we do not have an always reliable feed price.

The last line is a joke. Of course we can't have those settings.
If we worry about MSSR than we are already assuming that longs will loan BTS at exactly 1.75. The MSSR is necessary to protect from the global settlement so let us assume that we are not changing it. If longs argue that the price on the DEX fluctuates let's say 2% and they margin called because of the wrong price we could adjust MCR by 2% to 1.71, but then in few days we will have arguments that the price is wrong again so we will need to lower it because people will ride the 1.71 border line and so on.

I am just saying that based on the market, past performances and usefulness of the smartcoins we need to come up with MSSR, offset and all other parameters that prevent global settlements and provide acceptable solution for longs and shorts.

Offline yvv

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 12:25:42 pm »
the only way can help increase the supply is provide more real money support BTS.

This is very unlikely going to happen (about 0% chance). Real money goes to ether. Even bitshares creator realized this and made ICO for his new project on ether. Bitshares does not have any killer features anymore. The train is gone.

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2019, 07:20:17 am »
This is very unlikely going to happen (about 0% chance). Real money goes to ether. Even bitshares creator realized this and made ICO for his new project on ether. Bitshares does not have any killer features anymore. The train is gone.
DanL actually wanted to run the crowdsale on bitshares. His business partners apparently didn't want to.
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Offline yvv

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2019, 12:40:50 pm »
This is very unlikely going to happen (about 0% chance). Real money goes to ether. Even bitshares creator realized this and made ICO for his new project on ether. Bitshares does not have any killer features anymore. The train is gone.
DanL actually wanted to run the crowdsale on bitshares. His business partners apparently didn't want to.

And they were right imo.

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2019, 01:03:03 pm »
And they were right imo.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I am super happy they didn't raise BTS tokens. Guess what would have happend to BitShares with B1 had a majority vote!?
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2019, 04:21:13 pm »


one interesting happen: BTS price fall from 0.06USD to 0.051, however the bitUSD supply increased.

this is what we need.

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2019, 04:23:57 pm »
What is there interresting ?
After the revive some people are moving back to bitusd as there are some opportunities on assets against bitusd.
Myself included.

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2019, 10:35:57 am »
BTS need to encourage bitCNY supply when it is in obvious premium and shortage.

a lower MSSR can help to make the yellow order highly placed and create chance for traders to borrow more with low CR and get profit.

I have explained this idea at  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=28367.0

there is a price called "switch price", at which BTS/bitCNY pair switch from "margin call orders is eaten instantly" to "yellow orders highly placed" status, this price is relevant to market depth, market emotion and MSSR, currently the switch price for bitCNY is about lower than 0.4CNY.

if the price is below switch price, traders get incentive to borrow more and buy BTS, however there is accumulated risk; if the price is above switch price, yellow orders will be eaten instantly and no risk accumulated, but traders are not so incentivized to borrow more.

for bitCNY it will be good to make the switch price  a little higher by lowering MSSR, it will encourage bitCNY supply and also lower the premium.

set MSSR=1.01 for bitCNY is a good choice, let's do that!

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2019, 06:37:54 pm »
2.Seperate the Margin Call Ratio and the Maintenance collateral ratio.

The Margin call ratio mean:
if the Maintenance CR is 1.75, the margin call ratio is 1.6, people can't make their CR to 1.6, only can make their CR to 1.75. When their CR below 1.6, they will be margin called.

We can set a range of the margin call ratio from 1.6 to 1.35, people can change their margin call ratio from 1.6 to 1.35 as they wish.

When the price drop down 8.5%, the margin call could only happen at 1.6, as the Market Rebounds always, this provides the market with a large buffer as prices fall again.
This is a very good idea!

When price drops, there is on the first time no unnecessary margin call, on the other hand prevents the system from bad debt.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 08:24:18 pm by bench »

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2019, 10:51:43 am »
“when bitCNY is in an obvious premium, BTS longs will get advantages in the long-short game.”

if we can make this happen, we will give incentive for bitCNY supply and good pegging.

I believe reducing MSSR to 1.01 will help to get this.

Offline finn-bts

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2019, 01:42:48 pm »
“when bitCNY is in an obvious premium, BTS longs will get advantages in the long-short game.”

if we can make this happen, we will give incentive for bitCNY supply and good pegging.

I believe reducing MSSR to 1.01 will help to get this.
Agree and vote for it

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2019, 01:11:57 am »
1.14.181 is voted active.

BEOS voted it.



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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2019, 10:19:02 am »
1.14.181 is voted active.

BEOS voted it.
BEOS changes votes at all times. IMHO they're not serious at all.
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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2019, 11:49:15 am »
MSSR of 1.01 makes sense for bitCNY, support!

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2019, 08:28:03 pm »
IMHO it's more reasonable to compare votes of all the related workers:

* 1.14.168 Poll - BSIP59 - Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.02,                      834,717,273 votes
* 1.14.144 Poll-BSIP41-Reduce MSSR of bitCNY from 1.1 to 1.05,            799,257,175 votes
* 1.14.181 Poll - BSIP59 - Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01,                      483,677,666 votes
* 1.14.169 Poll - BSIP59 - Do Not Reduce MSSR of bitCNY                       243,231,913 votes

Apparently 1.14.168 has the highest support. So my conclusion is we should set the parameter to 1.02.

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Re: [Poll] BSIP59:Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2019, 03:56:56 pm »
As 1.14.169 expired, a new WP is created to replace it:

1.14.191   Poll - BSIP59 - Do Not Reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01

If you are against to reduce MSSR of bitCNY to 1.01, please vote 1.14.191