Author Topic: Bitshares at the cross roads  (Read 4805 times)

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sockpuppet

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Bitshares at the cross roads
« on: April 23, 2019, 08:06:34 am »
This is a throw-away account to protect us from defamation from Stan Larimer. You can call me Don.

It is our opinion that the Bitshares community has to make a hard decision sooner than later: How to deal with bribery and vote-buying that is currently taking place.
The question this community needs to answer is:

Should Bitshares community allow vote buying and concentration of voting power and are we fine with the consequences?

If we let the current situation go on, we (yes, the entire community) set a dangerous precedence for subsequent "projects" to repeat the same scheme - and they may be even more convincing and successful then what is currently taking place. Greed can be dangerous to Bitshares.

Now, answer these questions:

  • Are you willing to risk the entire reserve fund be taken by some random/new player making empty promises to greedy retards?
  • Are you willing to risk our developers to move on because their workers are at stake?
  • Do you want to hand over control over the Blockchain to someone unfamiliar with the technology?
  • Do you honor the work done by 3rd parties that delivered without even claiming to be a partner of Bitshare
  • Do you realize a hostile takeover can end in the blockchain being crippled by hostile committee?

Good for you, we have options and are discussing them with key players in the space already.

Finally, some random quotes from Daniel Larimer:

Quote
I suspect that it would be trivial for any of the previously elected delegates to black-list transactions that vote for the attacker.  They could then easily hard fork out the transactions that voted in the attacking delegates and block any future transactions that would vote for them.
(bytemaster, bitsharestalk.org)

Quote
If attacker is a collusion by the largest whales, then either the whales think the "attack" is a feature that will enhance the protocol or the "community" will fork the whales out. Bitcoin and Ethereum have both seen what happens when those with large influence use it to change the rules against the minority interests (ETC and BCC).
(Daniel Larimer, https://steemit.com/eos/@dan/reponse-to-vitalik-s-written-remarks)

@Admins: I request this account being deleted (with this post staying, if possible).

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 01:10:41 pm »
This is a throw-away account to protect us from defamation from Stan Larimer. You can call me Don.

It is our opinion that the Bitshares community has to make a hard decision sooner than later: How to deal with bribery and vote-buying that is currently taking place.
The question this community needs to answer is:

Should Bitshares community allow vote buying and concentration of voting power and are we fine with the consequences?

If we let the current situation go on, we (yes, the entire community) set a dangerous precedence for subsequent "projects" to repeat the same scheme - and they may be even more convincing and successful then what is currently taking place. Greed can be dangerous to Bitshares.

Now, answer these questions:

  • Are you willing to risk the entire reserve fund be taken by some random/new player making empty promises to greedy retards?
  • Are you willing to risk our developers to move on because their workers are at stake?
  • Do you want to hand over control over the Blockchain to someone unfamiliar with the technology?
  • Do you honor the work done by 3rd parties that delivered without even claiming to be a partner of Bitshare
  • Do you realize a hostile takeover can end in the blockchain being crippled by hostile committee?

Good for you, we have options and are discussing them with key players in the space already.

Finally, some random quotes from Daniel Larimer:

Quote
I suspect that it would be trivial for any of the previously elected delegates to black-list transactions that vote for the attacker.  They could then easily hard fork out the transactions that voted in the attacking delegates and block any future transactions that would vote for them.
(bytemaster, bitsharestalk.org)

Quote
If attacker is a collusion by the largest whales, then either the whales think the "attack" is a feature that will enhance the protocol or the "community" will fork the whales out. Bitcoin and Ethereum have both seen what happens when those with large influence use it to change the rules against the minority interests (ETC and BCC).
(Daniel Larimer, https://steemit.com/eos/@dan/reponse-to-vitalik-s-written-remarks)

@Admins: I request this account being deleted (with this post staying, if possible).

Nice way to be taken seriously by starting off your thread with ad hominem calling a significant portion of the community, holders of 360 million BTS, "retards". Your argument is so bad you choose to open it this way, making your first point to insult the community... Well done.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:26:10 pm by Crypto Kong »

Offline onceuponatime

Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 02:04:46 pm »
"making empty promises to greedy retards"

I'd guess that the best place for you to look for a retard is in a mirror.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"So we pretty much demonstrated that at most latitudes we've got satellite connectivity to the BEOS network.

Currently a BEOS node with 5 peers consumes about 2.6 kbps down and less than 1 kbps up. This is easily handled by Royal Caribbean's high speed 10 mbps network.

Stay tuned when I check it out in the Atlantic Bermuda Triangle on my cruise with Bytemaster and family next month."

https://steemit.com/bitshares/@stan/beos-completes-its-first-trans-pacific-journey

Offline michaelx

Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 02:43:19 pm »
I have quite a bit to say in response, but I will let Daniel Larimer answer for me.


EOS - Dan Msg Only, [16.05.19 07:44]
No. The issue is any post launch decisions made by any means other than chain splits like bitcoin cash violates token some buyers expectations. So a network must be committed to immutability or it is fundamentally governed by minority of influencers. Governance isn’t bad, it has a place.  The problem is those who want every solution to solve every problem

Replying to:
 >  Voting buying is the biggest issue

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1186778)



EOS - Dan Msg Only, [16.05.19 18:17]
The purpose of bp is to decentralize decisions on protocol updates and censorship resistance and generally scaling trx processing.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1187700)



Regarding the BEOS model of semi centralization/governance (BEOS holders still vote with their stake):


EOS - Dan Msg Only, [16.05.19 18:17]
The purpose of bp is to decentralize decisions on protocol updates and censorship resistance and generally scaling trx processing.

Chains can be centralized and have value. Especially in a multichain world.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156174)

Centralized chains in good hands can grow faster and carry on creators vision.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156181)

Decentralized chains slow to a crawl.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156182)

My point is don’t hate on centralized systems unless they become monopoly scale.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156186)

Everything is decentralized in a competitive market

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156187)

Remember you are centralized

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156189)

Decentralization is a tool not a goal in itself

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156190)

This. Plus with public accountability .

Replying to:
 >  we trust companies to run databases but the thought of one running a private blockchain makes people go nuts. who cares if someone wants to fork EOS and run all the BP's themselves? average users wont give a shit about that. they'll care about the dapps and services.


🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156195)



If you want real companies doing mass adoption scale things with real investors under government regulation then they need control over the platform that they build.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156199)

You might kill it too young.

Replying to:
 >  Is it necessary for us to hate so it doesn't become monopoly scale?

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156200)

Basically people don’t want to go to jail

So hating them for creating something is misguided

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156203)

I think we need systems that are more decentralized than bitcoin, eos, and eth. I also think we need more centralized solutions too.  I’m working toward enabling both sides to scale.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156214)


« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 02:49:38 am by michaelx »

Offline ioex

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2019, 02:48:46 pm »
Are you talking about BEOS?
I think the boes account shouldn’t vote, it just hold others’ BTS, and holders don’t give vote rights to beos!

Offline onceuponatime

Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2019, 02:51:32 pm »
Are you talking about BEOS?
I think the boes account shouldn’t vote, it just hold others’ BTS, and holders don’t give vote rights to beos!

They certainly do give voting rights to the BLCA to vote their stake while they are receiving the rainfall. It is quite explicity stated in the agreement that the BLCA votes to further the integration of BEOs with bitshares.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:53:57 pm by onceuponatime »

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 02:53:14 pm »
Are you talking about BEOS?
I think the boes account shouldn’t vote, it just hold others’ BTS, and holders don’t give vote rights to beos!

You don't speak for me or the others who have sent BTS to the BEOS gateway. I understand I am giving BEOS team the right to vote with my BTS and am happy for them to do so, I'm sure the others can speak for themselves too.

Offline michaelx

Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2019, 02:54:19 pm »
Are you talking about BEOS?
I think the boes account shouldn’t vote, it just hold others’ BTS, and holders don’t give vote rights to beos!

Actually, they agree to it in the member agreement.

You didn't have a problem asking for BEOS to vote for you here:

https://steemit.com/beos/@steem-samiam/beos-at-sea-7
Hi, could you vote witness ioex ?

And we actually did look and put in a vote but it appears you were missing blocks. Fix it and we might vote again and give you a chance to prove yourself as a witness.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:57:48 pm by michaelx »

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 02:56:51 pm »
I have quite a bit to say in response, but I will let Daniel Larimer answer for me.


EOS - Dan Msg Only, [16.05.19 07:44]
No. The issue is any post launch decisions made by any means other than chain splits like bitcoin cash violates token some buyers expectations. So a network must be committed to immutability or it is fundamentally governed by minority of influencers. Governance isn’t bad, it has a place.  The problem is those who want every solution to solve every problem

Replying to:
 >  Voting buying is the biggest issue

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1186778)



EOS - Dan Msg Only, [16.05.19 18:17]
The purpose of bp is to decentralize decisions on protocol updates and censorship resistance and generally scaling trx processing.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1187700)



Regarding the BEOS model of semi centralization/governance (BEOS holders still vote with their stake):


EOS - Dan Msg Only, [16.05.19 18:17]
The purpose of bp is to decentralize decisions on protocol updates and censorship resistance and generally scaling trx processing.

Chains can be centralized and have value. Especially in a multichain world.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156174)

Centralized chains in good hands can grow faster and carry on creators vision.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156181)

Decentralized chains slow to a crawl.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156182)

My point is don’t hate on centralized systems unless they become monopoly scale.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156186)

Everything is decentralized in a competitive market

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156187)

Remember you are centralized

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156189)

Decentralization is a tool not a goal in itself

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156190)

This. Plus with public accountability .

Replying to:
 >  we trust companies to run databases but the thought of one running a private blockchain makes people go nuts. who cares if someone wants to fork EOS and run all the BP's themselves? average users wont give a shit about that. they'll care about the dapps and services.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156195)



If you want real companies doing mass adoption scale things with real investors under government regulation then they need control over the platform that they build.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156199)

You might kill it too young.

Replying to:
 >  Is it necessary for us to hate so it doesn't become monopoly scale?

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156200)

Basically people don’t want to go to jail

So hating them for creating something is misguided

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156203)

I think we need systems that are more decentralized than bitcoin, eos, and eth. I also think we need more centralized solutions too.  I’m working toward enabling both sides to scale.

🔗 Context 🔗 (http://t.me/EOSproject/1156214)



Nicely done, shows that OP has cherry picked a couple of messages to suit his agenda that doesn't represent bytemasters full opinion.

Offline ioex

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2019, 03:00:17 pm »
Ok , I don’t know the agreement is stated in advance,I apologize for my mistakes.

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2019, 03:04:47 pm »
Ok , I don’t know the agreement is stated in advance,I apologize for my mistakes.

Very good of you to own up to your mistakes, much respect :)

Offline michaelx

Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2019, 03:11:26 pm »
Ok , I don’t know the agreement is stated in advance,I apologize for my mistakes.

No problem, pm me on telegram when your node is running smooth and tested on testnet. If you need help with Price feeds I can point you in the right direction.

We look forward to supporting a lot more decentralization in governance and bp's.

Sometimes you need some centralization in order to implement decentralized agenda's.

Offline Stan

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2019, 04:01:15 pm »
"Sockpuppet" is clearly "the artist formerly known as funkit" . Its obvious from style and all the points he has made on the telegram channel.  Funny that he needs a fake id account when "funkit" is as fake a name as they come.  What reputation could he possibly be protecting?

It breaks my heart to have such malicious slander directed against what should be celebrated as a boon to the whole BitShares ecosystem.  I'm one of the original founders of that ecosystem and always have its best interests in heart.  We have created BEOS with our own cash (700K and counting) and are giving it away to holders of BitShares, every one of which is eligible to move some of their BTS over to the new chain and collect months of rainfall.

People who do that obviously want to see BitShares integrated to take advantage of EOS technology.  That's what we will be voting for with their loaned voting power.  We are trying not to perturb the existing system too much but do feel we represent enough of the bitshareholders to claim a few committee slots and run a few nodes.  Is that too much to ask?

In the end, funkit is arguing that the existing alliances that control bitshares have the best interests of the ecosystem at heart and should not be perturbed.  Perhaps they do.  But there's a new alliance of voters who have every right to influence the future of BitShares and who are doing it by the book by pooling their voting power.

I honestly can't understand why anyone would object to us upgrading BitShares to a sidechain in the EOS universe where  all our assets can become useful to a much wider audience and all the smart contract features of EOS made able to use BitShares assets.  Think of the billions of EOS R&D and marketing that will make available to BitShares.

Methinks funkit's sockpuppet doth protest too much.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 05:02:11 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Thom

Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2019, 06:27:31 pm »
I still have reservations about BEOS, primarily due to the favorable attitudes I've read concerning regulatory compliance by members of the BEOS team. I have much respect for Stan, OnceUponaTime , MichaelX and Dan Notestein, but I also see their track record of mistakes. We' all have one, we're all only human, and mistakes can't be eliminated. However, when mistakes become a pattern and ignored, aren't seen as a lesson to learn from, something must be done to raise awareness to a higher level, to stop the cycle.

For the record I have not participated in the BEOS rainfall. I am on the fence about it and I would hate to succumb to manipulation or bribery. It is very difficult to know the actual agenda of all the players, especially those behind the scenes, so abstaining is the best way I know to avoid that.

The main question is, is the BEOS voting power being used to restore the original disruptive, decentralized vision that BitShares was created for, or to dominate and control stakeholders towards a legally regulated, personal freedom limiting ecosystem the uninformed masses will accept? Is this a slippery slope towards incremental control, or the restoration of Austrian / free market economic principles that provide an ecosystem with integrity, accountability and promote personal financial freedom?

One question you need to ask yourself, if you don't want to see kyc and increasing regulator influence on BitShares, is whether the BTS held by those in control of BEOS deposits was intended from the start to be used to do more than facilitate the integration of BitShares and EOS, or, whether such integration requires kyc and fundamental regulatory changes to BitShares. If you don't care about that, feel free to put your head back in the sand and pay no attention to this question. If you do care I urge you to choose your course of action wisely.

I have observed the centralization of control through voting proxies, which was established to address the problem of voter apathy. It did solve the problem of apathy that paralyzed development and growth, but at the expense as time went on of centralizing control. I was not happy with the changes  imposed on BPs wrt price feeds. BSIP42 was a disaster in my mind, particularly in how it was thrust into production, and without any type of report or written conclusion to summarize the results of those "experiments". We now see a downward pressure on MCR from 175% down to 160%, rather than holding individuals personally responsible for their own collateral management. The global MCR value for an asset should be set with investor's safety, not profit as it's primary criteria. I see the influence of Keynesian economic advocates and if those are allowed to prevail we will end up with the same "brink of disaster" situation as mainstream financial markets are experiencing right now.

Perhaps we need more centralized planning to restore the vision and replace the Keynesian perspective with the superior Austrian approach. Ofc if that is to be done the centralized control must be trustworthy and be committed to doing that. I myself have more trust in those I specifically mentioned above, than I do with bitcrab and those who defer to his proxy.That's not to say I totally trust them, b/c of the regulatory attitudes they have expressed, especially wrt kyc policies. 

Whichever way you decide, the choice is currently yours to make. Choose wisely. 
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline pc

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Re: Bitshares at the cross roads
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2019, 06:52:17 pm »
us upgrading BitShares to a sidechain in the EOS universe

Is that your goal? Why didn't you say so in the rainfall terms?

How about asking people if they actually want that *before* you lure them out of their voting power?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 07:21:55 pm by pc »
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