Author Topic: The Significance of what we are doing...  (Read 14667 times)

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Offline bytemaster


Point noted about extreme political views...  Unlike debates with left vs right, communism vs democracy, gay rights, etc all of these views require everyone to adopt their system and threaten to hurt those who do not get with the program.   I merely promote views that don't threaten to hurt anyone.   Though, I suppose most other views by their very nature would threaten to hurt me for not getting with their program.   Look what happened to Jesus for simply telling people to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, give to the poor, go two miles if you are compelled to go one.   

Do you believe that the myth of Jesus is actually true? Would you describe yourself as any of the following: atheist, theist, deist, Christian?  Just so that I can understand exactly where you are coming from.

None of the above.  After seeing the complete ignorance of the vast majority of society on every other area of inquiry (Money, Economics, Government, Electricity, Health, etc) combined with the complete corruption of any kind of commitment to the truth by every political entity since Genesis was first penned I have no trust in any other individual to accurately convey a message over 2000 microseconds let alone 2000 years, through multiple cultures and languages.   Always and everywhere the history books are written by the victors to serve as propaganda for their rule.   Lies and myths are accepted as truth today despite clear evidence to the contrary from first hand experience.   People DIE for these lies thinking they are fighting for freedom.   

Does God exist or do we live in the matrix?  I believe the answer can only be found within.  All of history is a myth and the future a dream.  Only now, in this moment, do they exist and are available to guide our next action. 
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Offline toast

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Maybe I'm not looking at this from a broad enough perspective, but it seems to me that if drugs (or another easy revenue source for street-level criminals) became illegal, that other forms of illegal activity would rise. Maybe personal assault to steal the iGadget and sell (or could we make this not a possibility?)

I don't think "street-level criminals" like that exist. There are poor drug addicts who steal shit to buy crack and there are businessmen who are providing an illegal service and are only in it for a profit. I don't think drug dealers would become thieves or conmen if their business disappeared.
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Offline progmac

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It's all a matter of tools. In the society of today the vast majority of people don't have the tools to survive and are in a state of desperation. Living day to day, paycheck to paycheck, or worse they are risking their lives and freedom to get beyond "street level".

We should be asking why are people so desperate? We should also be asking why government encourages people to have dependency on it's services but sets monetary and legal policies which may in fact contribute to the desperation people are under?

Finally we have to ask what can we do about this?  Crime exists where ever human beings are desperate and the laws interfere with the free market. In a free market where selling drugs is not illegal then the drug dealing industry wouldn't necessarily be violent anymore. But let's be honest about it and also admit that if there were better opportunities the vast majority of people who sell drugs for a living would be convinced to do something else.

So until we provide better opportunities for people by building tools which cannot easily be confiscated, banned, outlawed, or have the access restricted, then nothing can be expected to change. The other invention we can provide is deflationary currencies/DACs.

Anyone can benefit from using their own currency so that they can avoid certain poverty traps. People who don't have good credit cannot go to a bank to get a business loan, but they can go into debt for college. Who decided that college is more important than starting a business?

The other important distinction is the distinction between currencies which inflate which means every year the holders will become more desperate and competitive to maintain their position, and currencies which are deflationary which don't require desperation but instead patience. When you have the currency itself programming people into thinking like a criminal because if they don't get all they can and spend it all as fast as they can't it wont be worth anything, then how are you supposed to get people to think long term or set long term goals, save or plan ahead?

Those who are promoting the inflationary model are promoting the thug mentality without realizing it in my opinion and we should look very carefully at the effects of deflationary currencies on different demographics to see if it results in a behavioral change.

From what I've seen in the Bitcoin community I've noticed it's remarkably well behaved with not very much violence. I also know most people in the Bitcoin community are not rich at all. So there might be an opportunity for a case study on the effects of deflationary currencies on different populations, could it be that deflationary currencies deter crime because people think if they just have patience and save they can get everything they'll need without having to hurt or compete with other people?
Pretty insightful and rich content above.

Maybe I'm not looking at this from a broad enough perspective, but it seems to me that if drugs (or another easy revenue source for street-level criminals) became illegal, that other forms of illegal activity would rise. Maybe personal assault to steal the iGadget and sell (or could we make this not a possibility?)

On the other hand, the current source of most petty theft and break-ins is drug users, not dealers.

Mostly my random thoughts at this point. I need to think about this some more and do some more reading.
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Offline danonthehill

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Point noted about extreme political views...  Unlike debates with left vs right, communism vs democracy, gay rights, etc all of these views require everyone to adopt their system and threaten to hurt those who do not get with the program.   I merely promote views that don't threaten to hurt anyone.   Though, I suppose most other views by their very nature would threaten to hurt me for not getting with their program.   Look what happened to Jesus for simply telling people to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, give to the poor, go two miles if you are compelled to go one.   

Do you believe that the myth of Jesus is actually true? Would you describe yourself as any of the following: atheist, theist, deist, Christian?  Just so that I can understand exactly where you are coming from.

Offline Ben Mason

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I find I'm so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. I think it is the excitement only a free man can feel, a free man at the start of a long journey whose conclusion is uncertain. I hope I can make it across the border. I hope to see my friend, and shake his hand. I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams. I hope.   (Ellis Boyd 'Red' Redding, Shawshank Redemption)

Offline Ben Mason

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It was one of those days when it's a minute away from snowing and there's this electricity in the air, you can almost hear it. Right? And this bag was just dancing with me. Like a little kid begging me to play with it. For fifteen minutes. That's the day I realized that there was this entire life behind things, and this incredibly benevolent force that wanted me to know there was no reason to be afraid, ever. Video's a poor excuse, I know. But it helps me remember... I need to remember... Sometimes there's so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can't take it, and my heart is just going to cave in.' (Ricky Fitts, American Beauty)

The creative use of this technology can change the course of human history and allowed to mature, offers the genuine prospect of social justice. I choose to believe invictus has both the creative genius and the integrity to communicate this incredibly benevolent force to the world.

Offline luckybit

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I am very excited about the potentials for society and you gave a great talk on that radio station yesterday! Everyone should listen.
Some differentiation: Would you agree that consensus technology can make civil law (partly) unnecessary but not penal law. Or would you want to challenge the centralization of the right to use force by the state? If so how would you want to make sure a violant person (for example a killer) gets arrested?
A violent person would thus be in a virtual jail, living in poverty, until they voluntarily check in to a work facility that provides them food, shelter, and clothing while they work to pay off their restitution.   
Can't say I understand this particular idea. Where there is relative poverty, there will always be crime and violence. I hope I'm wrong.

The problem with work facilities is that the current justice system willingly frames people or creates conditions for people to find themselves paying restitution for life. There are many debt traps, poverty traps, or traps which will put decent people in for profit private prisons.

We have a lot to fix with the justice system and the prison system. I think in general what we should focus on is reducing the scarcity and cost of living. People will not have to resort to crime or government support if the market were deflationary enough that everyone could just have their basic needs met. It's only when people become desperate that they begin to take chances they would not ordinarily have taken to earn $.

The rest of what you're saying I agree with. I do think that having more opportunities to make a living in an information based economy benefits everyone. No one has a monopoly on information at this time. But I think we should not limit what we are doing to just information alone because information can be made physical with 3d printers.

That means poverty as we know it can be dramatically reduced without government involvement. I would expect that as poverty is eliminated and the needs of people are met then we will have less street thugs selling drugs to pay for themselves and child support.
Can't say I understand this particular idea. Where there is relative poverty, there will always be crime and violence. I hope I'm wrong.

More generally, where there are imperfect humans there will be crime and violence.  The question is how to minimize it without participating in crime (by which I mean the violation of rights) or initiating violence.
I think about it a lot. Largely because I live in a neighborhood where i witness drug deals with some regularity and crime in general (petty theft mostly) is higher than average. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if nobody bought their drugs on the street and put the street-level dealer out of business. But then I figure that the people into dealing drugs are mostly poor kids who would be getting their money more violently if they couldn't sell dope. Young, uneducated, generally uncivilized -- how will they participate in the economy? What role would these type of people have in a new economy?

It's all a matter of tools. In the society of today the vast majority of people don't have the tools to survive and are in a state of desperation. Living day to day, paycheck to paycheck, or worse they are risking their lives and freedom to get beyond "street level".

We should be asking why are people so desperate? We should also be asking why government encourages people to have dependency on it's services but sets monetary and legal policies which may in fact contribute to the desperation people are under?

Finally we have to ask what can we do about this?  Crime exists where ever human beings are desperate and the laws interfere with the free market. In a free market where selling drugs is not illegal then the drug dealing industry wouldn't necessarily be violent anymore. But let's be honest about it and also admit that if there were better opportunities the vast majority of people who sell drugs for a living would be convinced to do something else.

So until we provide better opportunities for people by building tools which cannot easily be confiscated, banned, outlawed, or have the access restricted, then nothing can be expected to change. The other invention we can provide is deflationary currencies/DACs.

Anyone can benefit from using their own currency so that they can avoid certain poverty traps. People who don't have good credit cannot go to a bank to get a business loan, but they can go into debt for college. Who decided that college is more important than starting a business?

The other important distinction is the distinction between currencies which inflate which means every year the holders will become more desperate and competitive to maintain their position, and currencies which are deflationary which don't require desperation but instead patience. When you have the currency itself programming people into thinking like a criminal because if they don't get all they can and spend it all as fast as they can't it wont be worth anything, then how are you supposed to get people to think long term or set long term goals, save or plan ahead?

Those who are promoting the inflationary model are promoting the thug mentality without realizing it in my opinion and we should look very carefully at the effects of deflationary currencies on different demographics to see if it results in a behavioral change.

From what I've seen in the Bitcoin community I've noticed it's remarkably well behaved with not very much violence. I also know most people in the Bitcoin community are not rich at all. So there might be an opportunity for a case study on the effects of deflationary currencies on different populations, could it be that deflationary currencies deter crime because people think if they just have patience and save they can get everything they'll need without having to hurt or compete with other people?

« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 08:12:11 pm by luckybit »
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Offline bytemaster

They can make money speculating in the success and failure of music... BitDope, etc.   What we are doing will create millions of jobs for people of all classes with access to more accurate information.
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Offline progmac

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Can't say I understand this particular idea. Where there is relative poverty, there will always be crime and violence. I hope I'm wrong.

More generally, where there are imperfect humans there will be crime and violence.  The question is how to minimize it without participating in crime (by which I mean the violation of rights) or initiating violence.
I think about it a lot. Largely because I live in a neighborhood where i witness drug deals with some regularity and crime in general (petty theft mostly) is higher than average. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if nobody bought their drugs on the street and put the street-level dealer out of business. But then I figure that the people into dealing drugs are mostly poor kids who would be getting their money more violently if they couldn't sell dope. Young, uneducated, generally uncivilized -- how will they participate in the economy? What role would these type of people have in a new economy?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 01:59:09 pm by progmac »
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Offline Troglodactyl

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Can't say I understand this particular idea. Where there is relative poverty, there will always be crime and violence. I hope I'm wrong.

More generally, where there are imperfect humans there will be crime and violence.  The question is how to minimize it without participating in crime (by which I mean the violation of rights) or initiating violence.

Offline progmac

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I am very excited about the potentials for society and you gave a great talk on that radio station yesterday! Everyone should listen.
Some differentiation: Would you agree that consensus technology can make civil law (partly) unnecessary but not penal law. Or would you want to challenge the centralization of the right to use force by the state? If so how would you want to make sure a violant person (for example a killer) gets arrested?
A violent person would thus be in a virtual jail, living in poverty, until they voluntarily check in to a work facility that provides them food, shelter, and clothing while they work to pay off their restitution.   
Can't say I understand this particular idea. Where there is relative poverty, there will always be crime and violence. I hope I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 06:08:52 pm by progmac »
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A little like Ant Colony Optimization. It's about emerging. Social discovery. Just like free market.

We should put these vision on our site, in case of other DACs use our advertisement.
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Offline bytemaster


Hi Bytemaster,

This is all great, and I completely agree with how everything described here is possible with a good consensus building system.  But help me understand what you mean by "Consensus Technology"?

In my mind ONE of the hardest parts about building consensus, is that everyone quickly finds some minor point they disagree on, the conversation always moves down to that level, no matter how trivial and less important.  Immediately, the infinitely repetitive flame, edit, censor wars start, nobody can agree at that level, everyone get's hurt, no progress is made, everyone leaves, any possible consensus is destroyed.  And that's just one of the problems.  Canonizer.com's goal is exactly to solve all such problems with consensus building, and to be able to rigorously measure for exactly how much you have, in real time, and find out who is still not on board, so you can know, concisely and quantitatively what is required to get most of them to support your camp..

Brent Allsop

I mean block chain technology that establishes the official record.   Technologies such as Canonizer can never get 100% consensus suitable for changing human action.  It is a great platform for discussion, but lacks self-enforcing rules that motivate individuals to take specific actions out of self interest.   

I do recognize that Consensus Technologies is very broad.
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Offline Brent.Allsop

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Hi Bytemaster,

This is all great, and I completely agree with how everything described here is possible with a good consensus building system.  But help me understand what you mean by "Consensus Technology"?

In my mind ONE of the hardest parts about building consensus, is that everyone quickly finds some minor point they disagree on, the conversation always moves down to that level, no matter how trivial and less important.  Immediately, the infinitely repetitive flame, edit, censor wars start, nobody can agree at that level, everyone get's hurt, no progress is made, everyone leaves, any possible consensus is destroyed.  And that's just one of the problems.  Canonizer.com's goal is exactly to solve all such problems with consensus building, and to be able to rigorously measure for exactly how much you have, in real time, and find out who is still not on board, so you can know, concisely and quantitatively what is required to get most of them to support your camp..

Brent Allsop