Noir Investment Group : NoirShares

[toast]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. The miners do not show support, they just mine and sell - they do not contribute to the ecosystem except for contributing to network security and the value of that drops over time with PoS coin.

On the other hand, If I have more NRS then I am more committed to seeing them increase in value. I didn't even bother claiming any MMC because of how little I got per PTS, but I will be all over developing stuff for BTS because I stand to gain from BTS gaining value. With that in mind I will be passing on this venture because I stand to gain almost nothing from putting in my time and effort.

Right now NRS have no value, but by getting people interested in the idea you could have them help you give NRS value by developing concrete value propositions for shareholders. The miners will not give NRS value, most will just sell as long as it is profitable for them to mine and then stop mining.

I think it will be clearer if you realize that what you are doing is totally equivalent to making something like Protoshares 2.0 and then awarding 10% NRS premine according to PTS 2.0 holdings at the date at which NRS would have naturally had 10%. Doesn't that seem strictly worse? Do you have such high confidence that you will succeed without the larger network that you are willing to trade that advantage for a bigger fraction of coins for your early miners?

you have stressed the idea of bringing in PTS holders for their attention. I get that and i accpeted it already, the issue is the % stake. how do i justify the 10% to those who invest in NRS directly? Its not just about having lots of people holding the shares. but also about investors. What is the point in investing in NRS if you can just invest in PTS and get a piece of both?

There is never a choice between PTS and NRS, you either invest in PTS pre-launch or NRS after launch.
Plus it's not like NRS is going directly to funding development... unless you're saying you happen to have a large premine and will be doing the selling?

[Troglodactyl]

...

you toast have 1000 PTS, NRS holder has 1000k, he mined to show support, you did not. There is no way i will give you 100 NRS, i had planned to give you 30, why? because with that 30, you would have a small interest in what i am doing, as a result you'd check in once in a while. later when you see the developments and choose to want in, you'll either mine, or buy-in. But if i gave you 100 NRS, you would already have enough to invest without even expending a single resource. meaning the dividends due to those shares are all free, not a single addition of value from you.

"Free" and "already payed for" are not the same thing.

Honoring the social consensus, in my opinion, is not about getting people to help you write your code as much as it is about building the network effect.  As is obvious looking at the list of failcoins, building network effect is much more difficult than just writing the code.  By honoring the social consensus, you invite this community (as one of the largest and most qualified cryptoequity and DAC communities in existence) to judge your product.  If they think it's worthless, they'll certainly dump it.  If not, even those who don't help code it will use it, and will relay word of its merit to those around them.

If you're more optimistic about having your product evaluated by a less knowledgeable group, that's entirely up to you.

[barwizi]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. The miners do not show support, they just mine and sell - they do not contribute to the ecosystem except for contributing to network security and the value of that drops over time with PoS coin.

On the other hand, If I have more NRS then I am more committed to seeing them increase in value. I didn't even bother claiming any MMC because of how little I got per PTS, but I will be all over developing stuff for BTS because I stand to gain from BTS gaining value. With that in mind I will be passing on this venture because I stand to gain almost nothing from putting in my time and effort.

Right now NRS have no value, but by getting people interested in the idea you could have them help you give NRS value by developing concrete value propositions for shareholders. The miners will not give NRS value, most will just sell as long as it is profitable for them to mine and then stop mining.

I think it will be clearer if you realize that what you are doing is totally equivalent to making something like Protoshares 2.0 and then awarding 10% NRS premine according to PTS 2.0 holdings at the date at which NRS would have naturally had 10%. Doesn't that seem strictly worse? Do you have such high confidence that you will succeed without the larger network that you are willing to trade that advantage for a bigger fraction of coins for your early miners?

you have stressed the idea of bringing in PTS holders for their attention. I get that and i accpeted it already, the issue is the % stake. how do i justify the 10% to those who invest in NRS directly? Its not just about having lots of people holding the shares. but also about investors. What is the point in investing in NRS if you can just invest in PTS and get a piece of both?

[toast]

Stan you're amazing

[Stan]

This is actually an outstanding opportunity to perform a scientific experiment, rather than arguing about it.

Why doesn't barwizi launch a second identical chain as his own NoirShares competitor?  Let the competing chain follow the Ten Natural Laws of the Crypto Universe for fair ethical competition and see which of the two chains gains the most traction!

The 10 Natural Laws of the Crypto Universe

I suppose anybody could play the role of the honorable competitor, but it would be best if barwizi did it for the following reasons:
1.  It would eliminate making the experiment something personal.
2.  Barwizi wins either way and is thus rewarded for his hard work.
3.  It would compare apples to apples since the business models would be identical - testing whether the Ten Natural Laws really matter.

What would such an experiment look like?  Let’s take a look.

Since I don’t want to presume that barwizi would actually be interested in being his own competitor, let’s postulate that another hypothetical entrepreneur named Macarena suddenly appears on the scene.  Macarena likes some of barwizi’s ideas, but notes that he’s neglected to consider most of the Ten Natural Laws in his approach.  He’s left himself wide open to competition and it might as well be her!

She decides to compete honorably according to the Ten Laws already widely accepted by the industry.  Barwizi has already released his software as open source according to Law 1 and all the altcoins of Bitcoin have long established the precedent that it is ethical to clone barwizi’s code according to Law 2.   We'll presume that barwizi's idea is great, so according to Law 3 it will ultimately cloned by many.

According to Law 4, she decides to give it a better name than NoirShares 2.0, so she unimaginatively picks NoirShares 3.0.
According to Law 5, she gives it a better algorithm - she uses BitShares-X so she can avoid wasteful mining.
According to Law 6, she appeals to PTS/AGS shareholders instead of those who are stuck on mining.  She gives them each 40% and reserves the last 20% to be sold as her own AGS to fund her specific development plans.
According to Law 7, she directs transaction fees to shareholders instead of unneeded miners, making NoirShares 3.0 more profitable.
According to Law 8, she then lets her 3.0 compete with barwizi's 2.0 in the free market.  She has been careful not to leave any room for someone else to introduce a 4.0 that could leave her in the dust. (Although perhaps someone could forego that last 20% she has reserved to raise funds for her development.)  She calculates that a 3.0 version supported by someone who has some development funds will be more competitive than a 4.0 version with no supporting war chest, and decides she has picked the optimum mix.  The invisible hand of the market will decide if she has chosen well.

Law 9 says she needs to attract the biggest crowd, so she asks Invictus for support she has earned.  She is suddenly featured in interviews with bytemaster and ads placed everywhere by Brian Page. She sets up her own version of AGS for 3.0 and because she has the backing of Invictus as an escrow agent people are more willing to trust her with donations that help her grow features faster than 2.0 can.

Further, she is now getting help forming a real company that she owns according to the ideas of the February Invictus newsletter.  She becomes a full fledged development company with the horsepower and reputation to launch even more DACs as time goes by.

Law 10 gives her the network effect and before long she becomes the standard for all things Noir.

Sure would be an interesting experiment, no?   

[toast]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. The miners do not show support, they just mine and sell - they do not contribute to the ecosystem except for contributing to network security and the value of that drops over time with PoS coin.

On the other hand, If I have more NRS then I am more committed to seeing them increase in value. I didn't even bother claiming any MMC because of how little I got per PTS, but I will be all over developing stuff for BTS because I stand to gain from BTS gaining value. With that in mind I will be passing on this venture because I stand to gain almost nothing from putting in my time and effort.

Right now NRS have no value, but by getting people interested in the idea you could have them help you give NRS value by developing concrete value propositions for shareholders. The miners will not give NRS value, most will just sell as long as it is profitable for them to mine and then stop mining.

I think it will be clearer if you realize that what you are doing is totally equivalent to making something like Protoshares 2.0 and then awarding 10% NRS premine according to PTS 2.0 holdings at the date at which NRS would have naturally had 10%. Doesn't that seem strictly worse? Do you have such high confidence that you will succeed without the larger network that you are willing to trade that advantage for a bigger fraction of coins for your early miners?

[onceuponatime]

This topic should not be  here in the first place. NOT complying to I3's 10% DAC provision in PTS/AGS model. There is an attempt to devalue DACs. No downloadable win 32/64 wallet during launch . Adhere to the DACs principle. Not to bend on what was laid out .

NIG is not a subsidiary of III, we intended to work TOGETHER not FOR. If we give value to PTS, what value will PTS give to NRS?

Invictus views itself as a "subsidiary" -- we work for PTS/AGS holders.
Peers who want to work with us therefore work for them.

 

I am an investor in PTS and AGS because, being a technically challenged senior, I have to go with my gut feelings as to the vision behind what I am investing in (which is to me as important or more so than the profit potential). I am in full harmony with the social vision and actions of Invictus. While others have expressed gratitude for the contribution you have made until recently to that vision, I am of the opinion that your present activity is parasitic to it.

I will not be an investor in your project unless and until it cosmplies with the Social Contract.

This thread and your project attempt to drain developmental and financial energy from the host to the parasite.

[barwizi]

can anyone tell me if these addresses  belong to individuals or ther are exchange addresses?

PZjWgGZQWdk5VHA18d6XE9JX7nbZESY7EV,13999.99500000,
        PgBqNfhXY6DAWRFKiao3E5ADsnYiQ83wGt,10999.00000000,
        PgsuLoe9ojRKFGJGVpqqk37gAqNJ4ozboD,10000.00000000,
        Piev8TMX2fT5mFtgxx2TXJaqXP37weMPuD,10000.00000000,
        Pd2gEFcxpeaAugr45Y7YWQzjD4hCfYyCBD,10000.00000000,
        PmrBYp4PzMYaixdaxQeQLEdXXtCVJsb7HQ,9996.93350272,
        PiR3em7nkSfBCZSALUrVKK7oVHxWXBJekZ,9847.88858195,
        PeTDLjj1mvH8dHNDrbpf2JegGhHetMdHqH,9823.25546630,
        PtLiyRBHaxpqNGvRd6m2tVsru6PjCGQca7,8200.00000000,
        PdSu1KoF7izeTWZmKV9jnKNfpwy3vByT5M,7674.80000000,
        Payg36hEzjSZxvnnF47sYoUUx4cUjVEs2H,7570.54421844,
        PgjLhPtnCtLBfEX5zU8epc1mzxUaoy6BfS,7000.00000000,
        PpB27wQiw7pmxXjXpGZcrSQs4Rst4vix8M,6000.00000000,
        PokVwdh2qSXDGwkkCMKa1wBKEwR47LF7rJ,6000.00000000,
        PpDuzqFmfk1UvAAzv8Qms89yaVBHnj2zRY,5688.49300000,
        PfxrEraJWxt4zQ1uBKxxrKsvhDkHUP8fCN,5400.00000000,
        PrzpESStjhDP9qFs7kaXXCjq5JLmFEU8Fy,5000.00000000,
        PYfX5KPVFozJqoKnN6s7t1NmVdLh1R3Fp9,5000.00000000,
        PtoFFXYRSjVB64y37yr8hupZdU9KKnBLkK,4995.00000000,
        PdjbhkqGDz3KGa4PyP5UVV7ath8Z3gRkqD,4417.02190000,

they are from the original PTS snapshot

[barwizi]

Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

Please do tell.

The value PTS holders provide is a massive network of knowledgeable early adopters. It makes the difference between 3 people working on your ecosystem and 50 people working. Read this thread to see just how many people with the relevant skills and interests are choosing not to work on this venture because you are not honoring the PTS social contract.

This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

I hope you can answer my questions clearly, what is the exact benefit for NRS miner X when i give PTS holder Y free shares? If the issue was give 10% to the DAC development fund, it would be instantaneous, i would know that this is going to help other DACs. But the feeling i am getting here is give 10% share to PTS holders, shares that NRS miners are struggling to mine.

Putting work into something does not automatically give it value. If that were true, I could make "burn&mine coin" which you have to both burn BTC *and* do proof-of-work and they should automatically have value because I put time and money into it!

Tell me the tangible benefits to this issue and then tell me what assurances NIG has that PTS holders will not repeat the massive dumping that was done on MMC. Too many units existed in the beginning, that resulted in dumping. Bitshares X is funded by PTS which has a steady value and BTC, so you cannot seriously try to use it as an example.

Tangible benefits discussed above. To your second point

* So you expect DAC enthusiasts and early adopters to be more likely to dump than miners? Miners HAVE to dump to make a profit from their mining.
* "dumping" is just price discovery - if people are willing to sell at price X that means those people think it is worth X.
* MMC honored only about 1% which means that there were more mined coins than premined coins after just a few days!

you toast have 1000 PTS, NRS holder has 1000k, he mined to show support, you did not. There is no way i will give you 100 NRS, i had planned to give you 30, why? because with that 30, you would have a small interest in what i am doing, as a result you'd check in once in a while. later when you see the developments and choose to want in, you'll either mine, or buy-in. But if i gave you 100 NRS, you would already have enough to invest without even expending a single resource. meaning the dividends due to those shares are all free, not a single addition of value from you.

[toast]

Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

Please do tell.

The value PTS holders provide is a massive network of knowledgeable early adopters. It makes the difference between 3 people working on your ecosystem and 50 people working. Read this thread to see just how many people with the relevant skills and interests are choosing not to work on this venture because you are not honoring the PTS social contract.

This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

I hope you can answer my questions clearly, what is the exact benefit for NRS miner X when i give PTS holder Y free shares? If the issue was give 10% to the DAC development fund, it would be instantaneous, i would know that this is going to help other DACs. But the feeling i am getting here is give 10% share to PTS holders, shares that NRS miners are struggling to mine.

Putting work into something does not automatically give it value. If that were true, I could make "burn&mine coin" which you have to both burn BTC *and* do proof-of-work and they should automatically have value because I put time and money into it!

Tell me the tangible benefits to this issue and then tell me what assurances NIG has that PTS holders will not repeat the massive dumping that was done on MMC. Too many units existed in the beginning, that resulted in dumping. Bitshares X is funded by PTS which has a steady value and BTC, so you cannot seriously try to use it as an example.

Tangible benefits discussed above. To your second point

* So you expect DAC enthusiasts and early adopters to be more likely to dump than miners? Miners HAVE to dump to make a profit from their mining.
* "dumping" is just price discovery - if people are willing to sell at price X that means those people think it is worth X.
* MMC honored only about 1% which means that there were more mined coins than premined coins after just a few days!

[barwizi]

When a wolfpack work together hunting, each has different roles. Same is true within a crypto ecosystem.

it a wild world out there.

10% is what the pack offers, you should leave it if you don't feel love in the air ....

actually wolves may hunt together but they fight over the food.

see, that is the thing, all i get are demands for 10% but no clear reason why. This exercise brings forward many of the questions that where asked as we crafted the Social Consensus Software License, read the bounty thread. I am all for giving PTS holders a stake, but i'd like to hear them justify it. If i subtract the 3 or 4 active holders who are assisting me and advising me what other assistance has the PTS holding group offered? If only you knew the hell i went through to get that code to even produce a single hash with no help.

here is another example for you

THIS IS WHY PTS HOLDERS DID NOT GET THEIR 1% STAKES IN GENESIS BLOCK:- https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2919.0


I finally figured it out but it was too late, launch time had passed. However if you read my response to Stan and III comes up with a good response, I'll tell you which wallet version to download that will give you your NRS.

Simply speaking it would give you the sympathy and support and continued attention of PTS/AGS holders.

Thank you for your honesty. That is an actual reason given clearly that i can use to justify PTS holders having a stake. 

what surprises me is that people keep dodging the fact that your PTS equal only 1%  MMC. I had even reached a point of 3% before we were moved to the off topic section. I chose to work together with III but i end up off-topic yet their actual competitors like Ethereum get child boards. wow. 

[barwizi]

When a wolfpack work together hunting, each has different roles. Same is true within a crypto ecosystem.

it a wild world out there.

10% is what the pack offers, you should leave it if you don't feel love in the air ....

see, that is the thing, all i get are demands for 10% but no clear reason why. This exercise brings forward many of the questions that where asked as we crafted the Social Consensus Software License, read the bounty thread. I am all for giving PTS holders a stake, but i'd like to hear them justify it.

Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

here is another example for you

THIS IS WHY PTS HOLDERS DID NOT GET THEIR 1% STAKES IN GENESIS BLOCK:- https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2919.0


I finally figured it out but it was too late, launch time had passed. However if you read my response to Stan and III comes up with a good response, I'll tell you which wallet version to download that will give you your NRS.

This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

Please do tell.

This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

You'll find that even bytemaster agreed that this is an issue. however i have figured it out and once i get the time, i will add it to NRS code template and PTS code template so that anyone who wishes to use it will not go through what i did.

I hope you can answer my questions clearly, what is the exact benefit for NRS miner X when i give PTS holder Y free shares? If the issue was give 10% to the DAC development fund, it would be instantaneous, i would know that this is going to help other DACs. But the feeling i am getting here is give 10% share to PTS holders, shares that NRS miners are struggling to mine.

Tell me the tangible benefits to this issue and then tell me what assurances NIG has that PTS holders will not repeat the massive dumping that was done on MMC. Too many units existed in the beginning, that resulted in dumping. Bitshares X is funded by PTS which has a steady value and BTC, so you cannot seriously try to use it as an example.

[toast]

Because from an economic point of view i can tell you this, it is not sustainable for a crypto-equity to have 10% of it's total in circulation right at the beginning.

Another point: If your coin has such a small starting network that the first 10% get mined by a very small number of people then that's no different from having started X months later with 10% distributed to this individuals at genesis...

[santaclause102]

When a wolfpack work together hunting, each has different roles. Same is true within a crypto ecosystem.

it a wild world out there.

10% is what the pack offers, you should leave it if you don't feel love in the air ....

actually wolves may hunt together but they fight over the food.

see, that is the thing, all i get are demands for 10% but no clear reason why. This exercise brings forward many of the questions that where asked as we crafted the Social Consensus Software License, read the bounty thread. I am all for giving PTS holders a stake, but i'd like to hear them justify it. If i subtract the 3 or 4 active holders who are assisting me and advising me what other assistance has the PTS holding group offered? If only you knew the hell i went through to get that code to even produce a single hash with no help.

here is another example for you

THIS IS WHY PTS HOLDERS DID NOT GET THEIR 1% STAKES IN GENESIS BLOCK:- https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2919.0


I finally figured it out but it was too late, launch time had passed. However if you read my response to Stan and III comes up with a good response, I'll tell you which wallet version to download that will give you your NRS.

Simply speaking it would give you the sympathy and support and continued attention of PTS/AGS holders.

[santaclause102]

I m on vacation so excuse my inability to read the whole thread.
Could you give me a quick run down about...
...why should I invest: What makes it a crypto equity (as opposed to a crypto currency) and a crypto currency?
... you meantioned it as a equity and currency fir NIG. What is nice. What service does it provide?
... looking at http://noirbits.org/ it looks like an ordinary altcoin. What more does it offer?
... How can I invest and what are the conditions (how long does the IPO last if there is one?)
..what source code do you use (your own, bitcoin, I3's)?
Thanks

Invest in NRS beacuse it is a decentalized risk/profit enterprise. What make it s crypto-equity is because it seeks to have self valuation beyond current scope of the average crypto. It is a crypto-equity because an invested unit will represent a stake in all and all activities NIG partakes and is a legitimate pfoof of your share of the profits/risks in any and all ventures. An invested unit also represents your existence as a share holder and entitles you to a say in what ventures are pursued, to what extend. The terms of operation and who becomes the leading figure, that includes even firing me for incompetence. in fact if the PTS collective had gotten all those shares in the beginning they would have the power right now to fire me. 

What service does it provide?

The very first venture being pursued is an exchange that allows NRS/NRB holders to trade directly in USD. PTS is meant to be part of this venture, but until we solve our diffrences, their tab will remain greyed out.

noirbits.org

It is an old site that we are seeking to update, the actual dev has been offline a while, we hope he is ok. in the mean time another website is being worked on by another dev. More details over the coming week.

How can I invest and what are the conditions

NIG will work with a 3 tier investment portfolio from which holders and investors are free to choose from. The investment options will be opened after this document :- Noir Investment Group Initiation Document is law, in order to protect Investors.

what source code do you use

PPC source adjusted to use momentum and make it difficult to instamine or overwhelm the network.

Thanks for your questions.

So NGS is a project similar to I3 and noirbits is similar to PTS in that context?