Author Topic: Announcement of cn-vote Union: Re-evaluation of our support of Worker Proposals  (Read 4592 times)

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Offline sschiessl

I'm very sorry for that. I'm very afraid that fewer and fewer people are willing to contribute their time to bitshares. Let me explain why cn-vote withdraws the ticket.
1.some people suspect that the price of BTS is getting lower and lower when worker sells BTS。Some people want to see no sales orders from worker in the market.I understand their anxiety, but I think they are attributive errors.
2.Some people think that worker's salary is too expensive and It's a bear market and it's time to stop all workers.
3.Some people think that worker's work is worthless。"We already know how to run bitshares and why to spend money?"
4.Some cultural differences。

To be honest, I'm not sure that cn-vote's action is correct. So I didn't vote in the end.

One (important) sidenote: Some workers include downpayments and public marketing. The downpayments will be considered lost, and canceling commitments that are already made and are already marketed (Decentralized Conference!) will be a desaster for the public eye and common investor (e.g. thinking "Can't they even commit to a sponsorship!").

Offline bitProfessor


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One (important) sidenote: Some workers include downpayments and public marketing. The downpayments will be considered lost, and canceling commitments that are already made and are already marketed (Decentralized Conference!) will be a desaster for the public eye and common investor (e.g. thinking "Can't they even commit to a sponsorship!").

BTS is already a disaster to investors, if we continue inflation and selling BTS without limitation to get funds, the disaster will continue.

Offline sschiessl

BTS is already a disaster to investors, if we continue inflation and selling BTS without limitation to get funds, the disaster will continue.

Can you underline that statement with actual statistics and numbers on how much weight the daily worker payout carries in the daily volume and volatility of BTS? If not, maybe we should crunch some numbers now?

Offline bitcrab

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I hope we can firstly see the USD margin call orders disappear.

Offline bitProfessor

BTS is already a disaster to investors, if we continue inflation and selling BTS without limitation to get funds, the disaster will continue.

Can you underline that statement with actual statistics and numbers on how much weight the daily worker payout carries in the daily volume and volatility of BTS? If not, maybe we should crunch some numbers now?
Workers.bitshares.foundation  account, the total number of BTS sold is 1228092.2407200001 BTS, 7.15-8.15(30days).

Offline bitProfessor

BTS is already a disaster to investors, if we continue inflation and selling BTS without limitation to get funds, the disaster will continue.

Can you underline that statement with actual statistics and numbers on how much weight the daily worker payout carries in the daily volume and volatility of BTS? If not, maybe we should crunch some numbers now?
In the long term, inflation is there. In the short term, the worker's sell order has no effect on the price.

Online bench

I hope we can firstly see the USD margin call orders disappear.

Real solutions to our real problems:
https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/pull/189#issuecomment-524290160
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 10:12:31 am by bench »
Be part of the change and vote for the bitshares-vision proxy!

Offline R

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Real solutions to our real problems:
https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/pull/189#issuecomment-524290160
How does this relate to worker proposals though? Increasing the % split between referrer:network for network from 20% without changing overall fees is a fast fix for any concerns regarding worker proposal emissions.

I greatly hope that the refund400k worker proposal votes will be reversed, as multiple highly important worker proposals require funding in a timely manner. Austerity is a failed economic policy.

Offline block_chain

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You guys with visions and knowledge,

@bench,
@ioBanker,
@block_chain,
@Thul3

Can you please step a bit forward, convince other investors, get the votes and push things forward? We need professionals. We need to do right things and do things right. Anyway, I know it's hard if not impossible due to the "decentralized" situation.

I'd say many of so-called investors don't know a f... about investing.

Thul3 is already a large proxy, this is good direction. However his voting power come from a single whale (@alt) only, this is not good enough. In addition, @alt himself is a large proxy as well, voting with the account "baozi", often voting with different opinions.

Let me express my humble opinion on the current Bitshares status and possible future development, based on my deep understanding of Bitshares as well as common business rules, marketing and analisys of other blockchain ecosystem. I may be missing some parts of the full picture because I'm not involved in some of the core activities and not being part of the governance team, however I believe I express more or less independent opinion and can think out of the box.

In few words, there is no difference between DAC and a typical company (there are some slight ones, but generally those are not game changers), and therefore a DAC MUST follow same rules to win the business and increale its value, namely:
1. Have a clear governance and ownership structure, with effective internal communication and decision making means.
2. Have a clear mission and values adopted by the management. Those to be put as corner stones under the marketing and business strategy.
3. Have a clear marketing and business strategy - what is the business, its short and long term goals, who are the target customers, what is the value proposition, how do we position our company on the market and compete with other companies - etc, etc.
4. Have a clear legal structure and follow the regulation of the operating markets.
5. Have a clear and effective financial managment, to control revenues, costs and investments.
6. Have all resources (financial, human, material) that are required to implement the business plan.
7. Have a clear and effective organizational structure so that company management and emplyees could collaborate effectively and know who is responsible for what.
8. Have a clear communication strategy to integrate the efforts and report on results.

This is the basis and 99% of you know this is a paramount for any successfull business.

SO WHY BITSHARES IS GOING THE OTHER WAY?!
WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THIS DAC WOULD BE A SUCCESS IF IT DOES NOT FOLLOW BASIC BUSINESS RULES?!

Let's look at the points above in more details.

1. Governance and ownership structure: although this is the backbone of DPOS consensus, it definitely could be better. Generally, we have 4 levels of governance:
- investors (aka BTS holders). Many of those have no idea how Bitshares is governed, to whom they proxy their voting power and don't participate the DAC governance in any way.
- proxys, actually key decision makers in the ecosystem. Most likely do not share any common vision, often acting only in own interest and are not actively supported by investors (e.g. historically have many stakes from referrals or hold a CEX account).
- committee. Although being publicly elected and are in control of key network settings, they have low power when it comes to business decisions, again not sharing same vision and in many cases care more about their own business (although inmany cases aligned with the DAC).
- witnesses, mostly providing technical resources for the network to operate, but sometimes can implement some power, i.e. when it comes to price feeds. Probably the best part of the governance model, working as  it should be.
2. Mission and values adopted by the management. As mentioned before, there are different opinions on that matter, and this is OK. However, the government MUST work out some statements supported by the majority and use those to define the strategy. Othervise the backbone is missing and the body is vulnerable and weak.
3. Marketing and business strategy - again, no consensus on that matter. Many people express their opinions because they have their vision and care but nothing formulated and agreed upon by the majority. Having weak plan is better than having no plan, but we don't have even a weak one. Key questions - what is the value Bithsares brings, is it for individuals or businesses, how do we reach them, what is the message we send.
4. Legal structure - although BBF is a good step, it is definitely not enough. Legal status and regulations applied are not defined. This prevents business from adoption and buy-in and makes Bitshares a very risky investment.
5. Financial managment - there is some form of it, but having every single penny recorded in the ledger, must be more formal and detaled, also support the business strategy. Noone is in charge of the DAC profitability at the moment, many take it as endless gold cart.
6. Financial, human and material resources - most likely present, but most likely not effectively managed and spend with huge overheads. Also with no business plan you never know how the resources must be spent and managed.
7. Organizational structure - there is some form of it and sometimes works well, but definitely could be better.
8. Communication strategy - presents in form of this forum and several TG chats, but maybe cumbersome and ineffective in many cases. Internal and external PR looks weak and ineffective w/o the strategy and proper governance.

With the above being said (although again, I may miss many points or misintepret those), here are some actions I would recommend to re-start the the business at the new level:
1. Put major proxies and investors into public negotiation to define DAC's basis - mission, values and business strategy.
2. Use all means to involve end users and BTS holders so that their support is based on their decision, and is not by default or as void.
3. Make key proxys to publicly announce their position towards DAC's mission and strategy, along with their personal and business information. This is not mandatory for sure, but those who are open and transparent may gain more support.
4. Spend particular resources (via a worker) to develop a straightforward business and marketing plan. Make sure it is based on proper market and competitors evaluation. Ensure support by the majority.
5. Allocate resources to implement the plan, control and elaborate it, report on the progress. Apart from promotion approach and business model this also shall also include efforts for users/clients onboarding and support. 
6. Ensure proper financial control by designated authorized parties, along with timely and clear reporting to the government and the community.
7. Ensure effective resource spending, avoid spare funding overheads. Think ROI.

This is to start from. I trully understand that this approach may be not supported or adopted by the majority of the players (gateways and other businesses on top of Bitshares), many of those are looking for short term benefit and does not care about the ecosystem development. It is most likely not something what most of dev team would appreciate, because this would mean costs cutting for sure. However, all of them could definitely benefit from strong and powerfull Bitshares in the future.

I call to the investors, it is time for you to shout!

Thanks for reading to this point :D

Offline Ammar Yousef (ioBanker)

You guys with visions and knowledge,

@bench,
@ioBanker,
@block_chain,
@Thul3

Can you please step a bit forward, convince other investors, get the votes and push things forward? We need professionals. We need to do right things and do things right. Anyway, I know it's hard if not impossible due to the "decentralized" situation.

I'd say many of so-called investors don't know a f... about investing.

Thul3 is already a large proxy, this is good direction. However his voting power come from a single whale (@alt) only, this is not good enough. In addition, @alt himself is a large proxy as well, voting with the account "baozi", often voting with different opinions.

Let me express my humble opinion on the current Bitshares status and possible future development, based on my deep understanding of Bitshares as well as common business rules, marketing and analisys of other blockchain ecosystem. I may be missing some parts of the full picture because I'm not involved in some of the core activities and not being part of the governance team, however I believe I express more or less independent opinion and can think out of the box.

In few words, there is no difference between DAC and a typical company (there are some slight ones, but generally those are not game changers), and therefore a DAC MUST follow same rules to win the business and increale its value, namely:
1. Have a clear governance and ownership structure, with effective internal communication and decision making means.
2. Have a clear mission and values adopted by the management. Those to be put as corner stones under the marketing and business strategy.
3. Have a clear marketing and business strategy - what is the business, its short and long term goals, who are the target customers, what is the value proposition, how do we position our company on the market and compete with other companies - etc, etc.
4. Have a clear legal structure and follow the regulation of the operating markets.
5. Have a clear and effective financial managment, to control revenues, costs and investments.
6. Have all resources (financial, human, material) that are required to implement the business plan.
7. Have a clear and effective organizational structure so that company management and emplyees could collaborate effectively and know who is responsible for what.
8. Have a clear communication strategy to integrate the efforts and report on results.

This is the basis and 99% of you know this is a paramount for any successfull business.

SO WHY BITSHARES IS GOING THE OTHER WAY?!
WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THIS DAC WOULD BE A SUCCESS IF IT DOES NOT FOLLOW BASIC BUSINESS RULES?!

Let's look at the points above in more details.

1. Governance and ownership structure: although this is the backbone of DPOS consensus, it definitely could be better. Generally, we have 4 levels of governance:
- investors (aka BTS holders). Many of those have no idea how Bitshares is governed, to whom they proxy their voting power and don't participate the DAC governance in any way.
- proxys, actually key decision makers in the ecosystem. Most likely do not share any common vision, often acting only in own interest and are not actively supported by investors (e.g. historically have many stakes from referrals or hold a CEX account).
- committee. Although being publicly elected and are in control of key network settings, they have low power when it comes to business decisions, again not sharing same vision and in many cases care more about their own business (although inmany cases aligned with the DAC).
- witnesses, mostly providing technical resources for the network to operate, but sometimes can implement some power, i.e. when it comes to price feeds. Probably the best part of the governance model, working as  it should be.
2. Mission and values adopted by the management. As mentioned before, there are different opinions on that matter, and this is OK. However, the government MUST work out some statements supported by the majority and use those to define the strategy. Othervise the backbone is missing and the body is vulnerable and weak.
3. Marketing and business strategy - again, no consensus on that matter. Many people express their opinions because they have their vision and care but nothing formulated and agreed upon by the majority. Having weak plan is better than having no plan, but we don't have even a weak one. Key questions - what is the value Bithsares brings, is it for individuals or businesses, how do we reach them, what is the message we send.
4. Legal structure - although BBF is a good step, it is definitely not enough. Legal status and regulations applied are not defined. This prevents business from adoption and buy-in and makes Bitshares a very risky investment.
5. Financial managment - there is some form of it, but having every single penny recorded in the ledger, must be more formal and detaled, also support the business strategy. Noone is in charge of the DAC profitability at the moment, many take it as endless gold cart.
6. Financial, human and material resources - most likely present, but most likely not effectively managed and spend with huge overheads. Also with no business plan you never know how the resources must be spent and managed.
7. Organizational structure - there is some form of it and sometimes works well, but definitely could be better.
8. Communication strategy - presents in form of this forum and several TG chats, but maybe cumbersome and ineffective in many cases. Internal and external PR looks weak and ineffective w/o the strategy and proper governance.

With the above being said (although again, I may miss many points or misintepret those), here are some actions I would recommend to re-start the the business at the new level:
1. Put major proxies and investors into public negotiation to define DAC's basis - mission, values and business strategy.
2. Use all means to involve end users and BTS holders so that their support is based on their decision, and is not by default or as void.
3. Make key proxys to publicly announce their position towards DAC's mission and strategy, along with their personal and business information. This is not mandatory for sure, but those who are open and transparent may gain more support.
4. Spend particular resources (via a worker) to develop a straightforward business and marketing plan. Make sure it is based on proper market and competitors evaluation. Ensure support by the majority.
5. Allocate resources to implement the plan, control and elaborate it, report on the progress. Apart from promotion approach and business model this also shall also include efforts for users/clients onboarding and support. 
6. Ensure proper financial control by designated authorized parties, along with timely and clear reporting to the government and the community.
7. Ensure effective resource spending, avoid spare funding overheads. Think ROI.

This is to start from. I trully understand that this approach may be not supported or adopted by the majority of the players (gateways and other businesses on top of Bitshares), many of those are looking for short term benefit and does not care about the ecosystem development. It is most likely not something what most of dev team would appreciate, because this would mean costs cutting for sure. However, all of them could definitely benefit from strong and powerfull Bitshares in the future.

I call to the investors, it is time for you to shout!

Thanks for reading to this point :D

Hello block_chain,

Welcome to the bitshares-vision, please participate: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=29379.0
Be part of the change and vote for the bitshares-vision proxy!
Committee account: iobanker-core
Ammar Yousef - CEO @ ioBanker OÜ

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Thanks a lot for the invitation, @ioBanker, I think we shall move this discussion to that thread.

Offline bitcrab

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I suggest everyone to watch the movie 《American Factory》.

Why the American workers rejected UAW to come into FYA? don't they understand that UAW can help them to fight against the FYA managers?

Surely they understand clearly, but the other consideration has higher priority -  they need to keep their jobs first.

Same logic, don't the BTS holders from China understand what sense can workers like wirex make?

They understand clearly, but at this moment, another consideration take higher priority - they need to stop a patient from continuously losing blood.

in my view, when BTS price is under 0.3CNY or there are margin call orders in CNY/USD markets, any big workers should be stopped immediately.

Offline Ammar Yousef (ioBanker)

I suggest everyone to watch the movie 《American Factory》.

Why the American workers rejected UAW to come into FYA? don't they understand that UAW can help them to fight against the FYA managers?

Surely they understand clearly, but the other consideration has higher priority -  they need to keep their jobs first.

Same logic, don't the BTS holders from China understand what sense can workers like wirex make?

They understand clearly, but at this moment, another consideration take higher priority - they need to stop a patient from continuously losing blood.

in my view, when BTS price is under 0.3CNY or there are margin call orders in CNY/USD markets, any big workers should be stopped immediately.

I agree with you, IMO; It's not the right time to pay 350K$ to wirex worker, if they will apply a business use case for BTS, I would consider studying their proposal, but they are not.

Wirex will be simply dumping the BTS in front of alternatives coins at CEX to liquidate, they will not invest in BTS due to that fact that BTS is continually going down, this BTS situation will prevent any investor from buying BTS at wirex wallets or anywhere, wirex service will only serve "time" manners for "BTS current investors and workers" to quick the dumping and the cashing out, but these are skilled enough to deal with their liquidity at CEX fiat exchanges anyway, simplifying their journey for getting the fiats shouldn't be costing us BTS value of 350K$ now.

Any investment worker now should focus on bringing a business use case to the platform as a priority; I'd love to see BTS listed at wirex but not at this critical time, we need to utilize that amount of value to create BTS business use case.
Be part of the change and vote for the bitshares-vision proxy!
Committee account: iobanker-core
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Offline Digital Lucifer

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I suggest everyone to watch the movie 《American Factory》.

Why the American workers rejected UAW to come into FYA? don't they understand that UAW can help them to fight against the FYA managers?

Surely they understand clearly, but the other consideration has higher priority -  they need to keep their jobs first.

Same logic, don't the BTS holders from China understand what sense can workers like wirex make?

They understand clearly, but at this moment, another consideration take higher priority - they need to stop a patient from continuously losing blood.

in my view, when BTS price is under 0.3CNY or there are margin call orders in CNY/USD markets, any big workers should be stopped immediately.

Please define "big workers" and define who takes responsibility for missing payments on agreements in that case towards 3rd parties (e.g. event organizers, hosting companies, service providers) ?

Many thanks.
Milos (DL) Preocanin
Owner and manager of bitshares.org through Consensus
Move Institute - RN: 2098555000
Murska Sobota, Slovenia, SI.