Author Topic: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!  (Read 40194 times)

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Offline FelixO

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I do not think this is a good idea.

First there were PTS which were issued with the claim that they would present the holder with a share in every new DAC. Then there came AGS with exactly the same claim and by that diverting value from PTS. Now if you use only the Feb 28th snapshot for every new chain that the value of AGS and PTS has again been further diverted, this time to the snapshot for BTS.
I think his evokes the danger of appearing to raise money for a product to raise money for a product to raise money etc..

I am unsure how to feel about this. How many more fundraising Shares etc will be issued?
Are PTS and AGS the final two for every new DAC or will there be more?

Of course PTS and AGS still offer a share in every new DAC but given that Bitshares X is arguably your most high profile project at the moment, I think the incentive to keep these two will be very low after one has BTS.

Offline ppimp

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I am still confused about what happens after February 28th. So now buying PTS is not worth anything. But AGS stays around and those now get converted to Bitshares XT? Is it mentioned somewhere what the ratios on that look like? Sorry if I missed it somewhere!

As you purchase Bitshares XT does that automatically turn into equivalent purchases of XI, XV, and XC? What happens when you purchase Bitshare XT after XI and XV have already been released?

If XI, XV, and XC  do not honor XT (that was a mouthful :)). I feel like having all these chains out there implementing different features of Bitshares x would lower the value of the original Bitshares X (which my understanding is Bitshares XT).

If XI, XV, and XC  DO honor XT. the assumption is we are deploying XI, XV, and XC to test out features we want to incorporate back into XT, which will probably be called something else? Bitshares XT2? Wouldn't XI, XV, and XC serve better not to be mentioned as somewhat official products (with formal titles) as you have in the original post? I would keep them more as separate, keep the focus on Bitshares X and say how Bitshares X - Version 0 (which is really XT) will have XYZ features, and that Bitshares X - Version 0.5 will have XYZ feature (which is implemented through our alternate test chain).

Apologies if I miss some fundamental understanding of this.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Adam,
    We wanted to mitigate the confusion so it will be very simple.  BitShares XT will be a single chain and everyone interested in that chain is no longer concerned with AGS or PTS after the 28th.   

    We are unlikely to produce these other variants (interest, variable interest, consensus) in 2014 because it would confuse the market which will require time to learn about the mechanics of BitShares X in the simplified form.   When we do decide to launch an enhanced version of BitShares X with some of these other features it will honor BitShares XT rather than PTS and AGS under the grandfather clause in the original PTS social consensus.   This is designed to protect everyones investment in BitShares X and eliminate the potential that our future upgrades will harm their initial investment.

    So if it were up to us there would only be a single chain that users need to worry about for the next year. 

    We will be preparing information on some of our other DACs in the weeks ahead.  But for now we are focused on BitShares XT and executing on this simple version before rushing to add features and additional compleixity.

Daniel, I wrote this for a different project but think it is very applicable to your situation here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/y0pk4qa4mjl80zp/The%20Roadmap%20%28Incentivizing%20Outside%20R%26D%29.pdf

TL;DR lay out what you want to do and lock up the money that you would devote to it if you had the time or could magically make the results appear, let the community add to the bounty to make it more attractive over time and if by the time you get around to it nobody else has solved the problem there will be more money in the bucket than when you put up your side if the community in fact wants the feature.   

With regards to the other chains, if you have no intent to develop them imminently, the OP is very confusing and I'd really recommend you either remove them entirely or put a header over them saying "Potential future chains 2015" so it is understood.  The naming convention is terrible and really confusing.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline bytemaster

Correct... if the market produces these extra chains then we all win.   

Obviously if they produce a chain with interest that doesn't honor AGS/PTS or BitShares XT with a large cut, someone will fork them.   My point is that our goal is to grow the market and maximize the number of chains out there.   If we can offload work to other market participants while we grow new ideas then everyone wins.

Likewise, we cannot enforce our suggestion of honoring BitShares XT for derived chains or any particular AGS / PTS snapshot.   We will produce the code and others will use to it to maximum effect and we all win.   Toast is already planning to launch some so it should be fun to watch.   

Note this is also best for AGS and PTS holders as any work offloaded on the general market means the funds we have left can be used more effectively at things that are not easily offloaded.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline thisisausername

We are unlikely to produce these other variants (interest, variable interest, consensus) in 2014 because it would confuse the market which will require time to learn about the mechanics of BitShares X in the simplified form...This is designed to protect everyones investment in BitShares X and eliminate the potential that our future upgrades will harm their initial investment.

    So if it were up to us there would only be a single chain that users need to worry about for the next year.

But it's not going to be up to III, right?  I can't imagine that all the players capable of forking BitShares X are going to wait a year to launch chains for stocks, prediction markets and everything else under the sun.  Their forks may fail if they do not follow the social consensus, but if they do their 'BitShares XI' chain would likely out-compete III's later one.
Pjo39s6hfpWexsZ6gEBC9iwH9HTAgiEXTG

Offline bytemaster

Adam,
    We wanted to mitigate the confusion so it will be very simple.  BitShares XT will be a single chain and everyone interested in that chain is no longer concerned with AGS or PTS after the 28th.   

    We are unlikely to produce these other variants (interest, variable interest, consensus) in 2014 because it would confuse the market which will require time to learn about the mechanics of BitShares X in the simplified form.   When we do decide to launch an enhanced version of BitShares X with some of these other features it will honor BitShares XT rather than PTS and AGS under the grandfather clause in the original PTS social consensus.   This is designed to protect everyones investment in BitShares X and eliminate the potential that our future upgrades will harm their initial investment.

    So if it were up to us there would only be a single chain that users need to worry about for the next year. 

    We will be preparing information on some of our other DACs in the weeks ahead.  But for now we are focused on BitShares XT and executing on this simple version before rushing to add features and additional compleixity.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline AdamBLevine

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For those of you concerned about the value of PTS or AGS, let me give you a long-term perspective from the marketing guy:

The value of owning PTS and AGS is that you have a stake in all the future businesses we build as well as every other business anyone else builds on the platform.  So while BitShares X is an amazing opportunity in itself, I'm more excited about a day years from now when there will be many, many DACs built on this technology. Some of them will be duds, some will be profitable and a few will be hugely profitable.  Imagine a small drip of dividends from many different sources that adds up to a stream (or raging river?) of value going to those who holds AGS or PTS.  Yes please.

(IMHO) Wringing hands over BitSharesX would be like worrying about the first company Berkshire Hathaway decided to invest in during the 1960's. Today a single share of Berkshire is worth over $150,000.   So whether you got in Nov 5, you're just now getting started or you join us way out in the future, there is plenty of opportunity. So enjoy the ride! 

Bigger Than Bitcoin,
B

I'm a little confused. 

BitShares XT -  The Experimental Test Network for BitShares X will be launched as soon as we have a minimal viable product.  In the goal of launching a minimal viable product we have stripped features that would delay release and which complicate the system.  As such BitShares XT has removed certain features:  Ripple Consensus, Interest on BitAssets, Escrow Transaction, Etc.   
BitShares XI  -  Will be our experimental network to see what happens if BitAssets pay a Fixed Interest rate. 
BitShares XV -  Will be our experimental network to see what happens if BitAssets set their interest rate via a parallel prediction market.
BitShares XC -  WIll replace TaPOS with the consensus algorithm and may come an variants with I, V, and T. 

Are all of these going to be derived from Feb 28th even if they are issued months in the future?  Is XT going to become XI going to become XV going to become XC?  Are they each their own chain, and if they're reset it goes to Feb 28th or is that just the main chain?

How are you planning on educating buyers/sellers of pts on exchanges?  This seems like a really important point for anyone interested in PTS to understand and yet will be a memo it will be impossible to pervasively express.   I am very concerned that you have too many highly similar chains on the horizon and it'll be incredibly confusing to me, much less the normies that need to become involved in this project eventually.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline codinat

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Between now and the 28th we will be announcing details on some of our other DACs as well...

Personally I am looking forward to buying after the 28th :)   
如果28日之前没到达你们的期望值,28日之后会失败的,投资人没看到产品,只有个mvp.bts没检验,画大饼大家下次不会买账的!但愿我是错的 :-[

Offline MktDirector

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For those of you concerned about the value of PTS or AGS, let me give you a long-term perspective from the marketing guy:

The value of owning PTS and AGS is that you have a stake in all the future businesses we build as well as every other business anyone else builds on the platform.  So while BitShares X is an amazing opportunity in itself, I'm more excited about a day years from now when there will be many, many DACs built on this technology. Some of them will be duds, some will be profitable and a few will be hugely profitable.  Imagine a small drip of dividends from many different sources that adds up to a stream (or raging river?) of value going to those who holds AGS or PTS.  Yes please.

(IMHO) Wringing hands over BitSharesX would be like worrying about the first company Berkshire Hathaway decided to invest in during the 1960's. Today a single share of Berkshire is worth over $150,000.   So whether you got in Nov 5, you're just now getting started or you join us way out in the future, there is plenty of opportunity. So enjoy the ride! 

Bigger Than Bitcoin,
B
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 10:19:49 pm by MktDirector »

Offline bytemaster


How will AGS from founder IDs be claimed? With the private key for the ID?
Yes


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Offline toast

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How will AGS from founder IDs be claimed? With the private key for the ID?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline toast

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Does this mean that potentially after the February 28th date, PTS/AGS will go down considerably, as buying them on a exchange is worthless because the snapshot was already taken?

Yes, they are worthless if you are only interested in shares of BTS X

Quote
So holders will just have to wait till they get their money back (and then some) when their stake in BitShares and other DACs come to fruition?

Yes, or when PTS goes back up in value because of some new announced dAC

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Whats the plans for initially purchasing bitshares? Where do you buy them from?
Is there some type of tool folks can use to make sure they are part of the snapshot?

PTS/AGS holders will import their wallets into BTS X and have their bitshares right there ready to go. Make sure you control all your private keys!

Quote
Will the PTS/BTS blockchain just die because minings etc is worthless?

Nope, you should read dan's TAPOS paper for some insight into what mining actually accomplishes and why you don't need it for a secure blockchain. As long as there are nodes on the network the chain will be fine.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline ppimp

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Does this mean that potentially after the February 28th date, PTS/AGS will go down considerably, as buying them on a exchange is worthless because the snapshot was already taken?

So holders will just have to wait till they get their money back (and then some) when their stake in BitShares and other DACs come to fruition?

Whats the plans for initially purchasing bitshares? Where do you buy them from?

Will the PTS/BTS blockchain just die because minings etc is worthless?
Is there some type of tool folks can use to make sure they are part of the snapshot?

Offline bytemaster

Between now and the 28th we will be announcing details on some of our other DACs as well...

Personally I am looking forward to buying after the 28th :)   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline JakeThePanda

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Can't wait to see the 12 day roller coaster ride for PTS, when this news comes out.

I do not think anyone will sell until after the snapshot has been taken...  After the snapshot it could be a free fall until we get closer to future products honoring pts directly.

The price of AGS will go through the roof from now until 02/28.  Get 3.5X BTS.  :-\