This is the most confusing IPO of all time, wtf am I supposed to do?

[toast]

so by raising this issue hard now means it can be tackled now before it really does progress to a court system which means we all lose and this great experiment is doomed... so its better if they need to take a step back and instead of pushing time and effort on software they put all that effort into sorting out the legalities to ensure this has a future like they are building for... otherwise it will have been for nothing...

100% disagree. Better to write the software first. They can put all of I3 in jail and BTS X will still be running on a global scale, invested developers will move to singapore or some shit like that. That said, you should consider how much more I3 cares about not getting in trouble than even you do.

Freedom of speech implies freedom to trade - this is the new reality. I can understand not wanting to take the risk in the short term, but in the long term we either deteriorate into a global totalitarian surveillance state or this becomes unquestionably legal.

Too extreme?

[Darkbane]

What's happening here is fundamentally the same as with mastercoin exodus, nxt funding, counterparty funding... if BTS gets hit I think the whole DAC movement will get hit. Think your legal chances are better if your asset's name is *coin instead of *share? Unfortunately that might be true...

my problem is... I really really really want this to succeed... as an investor this is a dream, to steal one of their analogies, its like buying a share of every internet company before they went public... however I'm worried immensely about the legalities of how the business is being practiced which is preventing me from going insane with large investments... I'm stuck playing conservative because I really do see a huge probability this will end bad, despite the fact I want it to succeed... so by raising this issue hard now means it can be tackled now before it really does progress to a court system which means we all lose and this great experiment is doomed... so its better if they need to take a step back and instead of pushing time and effort on software they put all that effort into sorting out the legalities to ensure this has a future like they are building for... otherwise it will have been for nothing... but human nature says, we'll worry about that later while we go forward over here...

[toast]

What's happening here is fundamentally the same as with mastercoin exodus, nxt funding, counterparty funding... if BTS gets hit I think the whole DAC movement will get hit. Think your legal chances are better if your asset's name is *coin instead of *share? Unfortunately that might be true...

[Darkbane]

Well this was a good 5 page read, lots of information and I have to agree with many points made by many people. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over this next week and into what we all hope will be many successful launches of the various products.

The #1 thing I am hearing through all these posts is the need for a central location for the "official word" on these rules and guidelines. A forum is a great communication tool, but a blog or product FAQ is a more professional way to set these very important factors and descriptions in stone so to speak. There is no doubt that it is all very confusing unless you have the time to dedicate many hours of reading a day to keep up with it. (many don't)

That being said, here is the article that Adam mentioned earlier that was recently posted over on the LTB site.
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/caution-watch-for-falling-pts/
This is a prime example of what should be available on the main Invictus site, specifically the bitshares product page. Utilize a product blog for official statements and updates, use the forums for discussions, update the blog when things change, rinse and repeat.
I'm very much looking forward to earning my on anything.

this leaves more legal questions since they are actually calling us "shareholders" in this announcement... which brings into question this whole "donation" thing even more (not just legally with the "stockholders/donators", but what about the IRS come tax time, this is taxable income to them)... this is a huge can of legal worms that could cause the entire value to be expunged by a large lawsuit or FTC investigation... this is what worries me... they are muddying the waters SO much calling things by different names every step of the way as if they are trying to legally sidestep something to create a legal barrier for which they have flat out broken wide open... I wish they would just call the apple an apple... so we can have clarity about buying oranges here...

[jwiz168]

After I have read  some of the arguments being raised. I think at this point in time some investors of other cryptocurrencies are worried about the potentials of  what i3 is presenting. Changes are GOOD. Cryptocurrencies are on infant stage. It may endure the growing pains associated with changes. Investors should embrace those bumps Naturally if there are potentials ,  there are also some lurking to discredit those potentials . Ironically we are talking about coins here, and what do we expect ? There is always two sides of it . Always has a RISK factor or what we call 'flipside'.

[CryptoN8]

Well this was a good 5 page read, lots of information and I have to agree with many points made by many people. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over this next week and into what we all hope will be many successful launches of the various products.

The #1 thing I am hearing through all these posts is the need for a central location for the "official word" on these rules and guidelines. A forum is a great communication tool, but a blog or product FAQ is a more professional way to set these very important factors and descriptions in stone so to speak. There is no doubt that it is all very confusing unless you have the time to dedicate many hours of reading a day to keep up with it. (many don't)

That being said, here is the article that Adam mentioned earlier that was recently posted over on the LTB site.
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/caution-watch-for-falling-pts/
This is a prime example of what should be available on the main Invictus site, specifically the bitshares product page. Utilize a product blog for official statements and updates, use the forums for discussions, update the blog when things change, rinse and repeat.
I'm very much looking forward to earning my on anything.

[rysgc]

Common you guys, you all have a few valid points but I hate to see the seemingly uptrend in hammering on things all the time. If your so concerned about investors you shouldn't even be doing this right now, this drives the value and trust down and down. If you don't understand something just ask it or take a little more time to figure things out. There's a lot of things happening and some of them are quite complex but everything is to be found here on the forum and I'm sure there will be a new way (blog or whatever although a sticky post on each topic should do just fine) of communicating very soon to deal with your frustrations.

It's almost impossible to stick to your original faultless plan, with any company and especially when creating new things which can very well change the world some day. Who cares if you lose out a little at start and gain much more in the end? And AGS was merely brought to life to fund 3I DAC's not to make things more complex.

This is bigger then 3I and bigger then all of us, and who knows if it will succeed or fail only time will tell, but until then I do my best to support this and stay updated and any large investor will do the same I'm sure. I think people should really start to see this as a revolution instead of their usual business activities where everything can be measured and compared with lots of reference material. So again just keep it nice and whenever your concerned about some things express them in a professional way with the opportunity to make things better instead of shouting out your personal frustrations.

[edit]
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/caution-watch-for-falling-pts is nicely written and can be a nice example for future communications
[/edit]

[onceuponatime]

I don't understand why you are investing such a huge amount of unproductive time and unproductive effort in remaining confused.

Why not take your miners and mine something other than PTS? Why not spend your time researching something mainstream and investing in something you find easier to understand?

This is the bleeding edge. Not everyone is cut out to bleed.

I have other investments from traditional ones like a home, 401k, to riskier speculation investments such as baseball cards, and PTS...  does not a wise investor spend time understanding the complexity of a situation rather than just throw money at the wind and hope some blows back into his face? you make light of something because today it works, but tomorrow if you get bit you will not jump on the bandwagon of how or why did this happen... you will just write off the loss and move on? maybe that works for you, but if I am to invest time and energy into something speculating on a potential future return, would it not be prudent to  look at all aspects so I can best judge where and when the effort is best applied to maximize that potential return?

don't mistake my judgement and challenge of this to not be extreme interest and belief in it... clearly I do have extreme interest or else I would not be digging deep into the understanding to find the best path... however when the paths keep changing and the waters being muddied, you have to make a decision on the best application of your efforts to maximize returns like I stated... if you want to just "point a machine someplace else" why don't you just buy a lottery ticket instead... the whole reason we point machines someplace is to be on the cutting edge and squeeze all we can out of it before we jump to the next one... what is wrong with wanting to actually build and understand one of them for the long-term versus a bunch of short-term gains... I see potential for long-term here and that requires a different bit of scrutiny and understanding that a short-term investor who tomorrow night might be mining someplace else...

I want to ensure my decision is based on sound logic and fact, not a bunch of "maybe" that tomorrow it will change and try a new model, or be liable for damaging lawsuits which would affect  someone who holds AGS and is NOT able to trade them... I can dump PTS in a second, but if I am a "donation" shareholder with AGS I can not dissolve that marriage to the best of my advantage...

Excellent reply. Thankyou.

[Darkbane]

I don't understand why you are investing such a huge amount of unproductive time and unproductive effort in remaining confused.

Why not take your miners and mine something other than PTS? Why not spend your time researching something mainstream and investing in something you find easier to understand?

This is the bleeding edge. Not everyone is cut out to bleed.

I have other investments from traditional ones like a home, 401k, to riskier speculation investments such as baseball cards, and PTS...  does not a wise investor spend time understanding the complexity of a situation rather than just throw money at the wind and hope some blows back into his face? you make light of something because today it works, but tomorrow if you get bit you will not jump on the bandwagon of how or why did this happen... you will just write off the loss and move on? maybe that works for you, but if I am to invest time and energy into something speculating on a potential future return, would it not be prudent to  look at all aspects so I can best judge where and when the effort is best applied to maximize that potential return?

don't mistake my judgement and challenge of this to not be extreme interest and belief in it... clearly I do have extreme interest or else I would not be digging deep into the understanding to find the best path... however when the paths keep changing and the waters being muddied, you have to make a decision on the best application of your efforts to maximize returns like I stated... if you want to just "point a machine someplace else" why don't you just buy a lottery ticket instead... the whole reason we point machines someplace is to be on the cutting edge and squeeze all we can out of it before we jump to the next one... what is wrong with wanting to actually build and understand one of them for the long-term versus a bunch of short-term gains... I see potential for long-term here and that requires a different bit of scrutiny and understanding that a short-term investor who tomorrow night might be mining someplace else...

I want to ensure my decision is based on sound logic and fact, not a bunch of "maybe" that tomorrow it will change and try a new model, or be liable for damaging lawsuits which would affect  someone who holds AGS and is NOT able to trade them... I can dump PTS in a second, but if I am a "donation" shareholder with AGS I can not dissolve that marriage to the best of my advantage...

[bitbro]

[/quote]

This is the bleeding edge. Not everyone is cut out to bleed.

[/quote]


F-ck yes!

 

[onceuponatime]

They can't do that since they already pre-allocated 100%. Prior to introducing AGS, PTS only had 10% allocation (90% to miners AKA the power companies), so they justified introducing AGS because they found a way to do it while still rewarding PTS holders with even more. I3 never devalued the value of PTS in terms of shares of future DACs (unless you count the situation where planned to sell all your XT so you won't get future BTS X offshoots) and it is very unlikely that they would.

Now I also notice in one posting they say they do not intend to be a host or use this software, they just want to create the software, release it, and then let some 3rd party be the host... their lawyers essentially told them you're making yourselves liable and legally it would be smarter if you didn't...

so since they are trying to establish this as not "company shares" and they are simply taking "donations" from people... their name says "incorporated" after it... which would imply they have legally registered in the US as an incorporated company... now if they have they have certain legal obligations they must follow and conduct themselves in... taking "donations" comes with a HEAVY amount of paperwork in america, I know I deal with it though volunteer work and the countless hours we must go through...

all that being recognized, are they legally allowed to take donations... and how can they use donated money for a for-profit incorporation... unless they have filed as a non-profit corporation for which there would be a great amount of data they could provide us all to check the status of that legally... which I am doubting exists... otherwise it would be plastered over every statement they make for legal protection... so this in fact would make them a for profit company... (if they have no paperwork at all, they would in fact be operating as a "doing business as" name which would hold the "board members" individually liable under their social security numbers for tax and legal purposes... opening up them individual for any lawsuits...

so now that I've established they are a for profit company in some form or matter since I have seen no declaration otherwise... how can these "protoshares" and "angelshares" not be considered company stock since they clearly have expressed they are shares in this software which they created and control currently... and by creating it and running it (which is probably why all future software won't be run by them at their attorneys advice) they have in essence created all of us company shareholders which entitles us to certain legal rights with requesting documents from the company per american law... basically a shareholders meeting if you will for a very basic summary... along with voting rights of the board members as shareholders... as well as company ownership as these are the stocks...

which leads to me to several other questions... now I have read they did not "pre-mine" any shares... but how is the company rewarding shares to people who do certain things posted in other forums... so at some point they had to purchase shares, or used equipment to mine shares for the company... in which case they used shareholder money ("donations") to further the business along and develop new products and sources of future income which they plan to spin off, into other sub-companies (DACs) for which new shares will be rewarded in them based upon original share ownership at a period in time...

I just don't see how they can skirt the legal system of being shares versus a commodity... I know the FTC came out and said they don't see bitcoins as anything more than a commodity and weren't interested in at the time (all it takes is one lawsuit to become interested)... however this is not like bitcoins... people are in fact trading in the "commodity" for shares in something else... its no longer a commodity swap, if AGS holders are not able to swap AGS shares for other commodities... its becoming a legally binding stock contract... which opens the door to a whole new world of questions for me...

I may have just been thinking out loud... but I have more questions than ever...

I don't understand why you are investing such a huge amount of unproductive time and unproductive effort in remaining confused.

Why not take your miners and mine something other than PTS? Why not spend your time researching something mainstream and investing in something you find easier to understand?

This is the bleeding edge. Not everyone is cut out to bleed.

[barwizi]

interesting conversation that is touching a lot of areas of concern, from the issues of AGS/PTS funding model to legal framework and definition of companies in this industry. Aspiring DACs entrepreneurs may want to pay attention to some of the issues mentioned here.

[Darkbane]

Adam is making fuss just to make it.  Invictus is a private incorporation, they promise you open source code and they let the market determine how their products, shares, etc. will be accepted. they never promised you an official public facing blog(although this forum is pretty good as one), nor did they promise you any other shit that you're whining about.  In this venture, investing was about intuition. quit griping and asking for every fraction of information and a chance to contribute to every decision.  To me, you, sir, are not practical and are not geared towards progress.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

well thats just it... when you said "in this venture, investing"... this is NOT an investment if you read their website... this is a DONATION according to them... so all the scrutiny is well advised and caused as a result of their lack of clarification and ultimately change in tactics... they did make promises as an incorporated company which you acknowledge it is incoporated.. being publically traded or privately traded does not negate the legalities and requirements for clarity to shareholders... which they deemed us by their methods of running the software and controlling it currently... so they are in essence, the stock exchange they never wanted to become, which they in the future plan to avoid, for obviously legal reasons...

[Darkbane]

They can't do that since they already pre-allocated 100%. Prior to introducing AGS, PTS only had 10% allocation (90% to miners AKA the power companies), so they justified introducing AGS because they found a way to do it while still rewarding PTS holders with even more. I3 never devalued the value of PTS in terms of shares of future DACs (unless you count the situation where planned to sell all your XT so you won't get future BTS X offshoots) and it is very unlikely that they would.

Now I also notice in one posting they say they do not intend to be a host or use this software, they just want to create the software, release it, and then let some 3rd party be the host... their lawyers essentially told them you're making yourselves liable and legally it would be smarter if you didn't...

so since they are trying to establish this as not "company shares" and they are simply taking "donations" from people... their name says "incorporated" after it... which would imply they have legally registered in the US as an incorporated company... now if they have they have certain legal obligations they must follow and conduct themselves in... taking "donations" comes with a HEAVY amount of paperwork in america, I know I deal with it though volunteer work and the countless hours we must go through...

all that being recognized, are they legally allowed to take donations... and how can they use donated money for a for-profit incorporation... unless they have filed as a non-profit corporation for which there would be a great amount of data they could provide us all to check the status of that legally... which I am doubting exists... otherwise it would be plastered over every statement they make for legal protection... so this in fact would make them a for profit company... (if they have no paperwork at all, they would in fact be operating as a "doing business as" name which would hold the "board members" individually liable under their social security numbers for tax and legal purposes... opening up them individual for any lawsuits...

so now that I've established they are a for profit company in some form or matter since I have seen no declaration otherwise... how can these "protoshares" and "angelshares" not be considered company stock since they clearly have expressed they are shares in this software which they created and control currently... and by creating it and running it (which is probably why all future software won't be run by them at their attorneys advice) they have in essence created all of us company shareholders which entitles us to certain legal rights with requesting documents from the company per american law... basically a shareholders meeting if you will for a very basic summary... along with voting rights of the board members as shareholders... as well as company ownership as these are the stocks...

which leads to me to several other questions... now I have read they did not "pre-mine" any shares... but how is the company rewarding shares to people who do certain things posted in other forums... so at some point they had to purchase shares, or used equipment to mine shares for the company... in which case they used shareholder money ("donations") to further the business along and develop new products and sources of future income which they plan to spin off, into other sub-companies (DACs) for which new shares will be rewarded in them based upon original share ownership at a period in time...

I just don't see how they can skirt the legal system of being shares versus a commodity... I know the FTC came out and said they don't see bitcoins as anything more than a commodity and weren't interested in at the time (all it takes is one lawsuit to become interested)... however this is not like bitcoins... people are in fact trading in the "commodity" for shares in something else... its no longer a commodity swap, if AGS holders are not able to swap AGS shares for other commodities... its becoming a legally binding stock contract... which opens the door to a whole new world of questions for me...

I may have just been thinking out loud... but I have more questions than ever...

[santaclause102]

It's not that difficult:
PTS gives you 1.3 x in all BTS X chains which is a total of 50 % in BTS X for all PTS.
AGS gives you 3.3 x in all BTS X chains which is a total of 50% in BTS X for all PTS.
PTS are trabable can can be sold afer the 28th, AGS can not.
PTS and AGS give you at least 10 % in of the stake of alle DACS that are developed by I3 and in all DACs that use the Bitshares source code and / or the help of I3 to build their DAC and in all DACs that honour PTS/AGS to get the attention of PTS/AGS holders.

What more do you have to know? Not that much. The confusion more comes from the fact that there are two ways to invest (PTS and AGS) which makes decisions more complex because their value is interdependent and which one is best depends on future developements. Going with everything (AGS, PTS, BTC) a bit is not too bad I think.

BUT THERE IS A REASON FOR THIS COMPLEXITY. Read my post at the end of https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3099.30


*BTS = Bitshares