Author Topic: 4.0 投票机制变化  (Read 3893 times)

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Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2020, 08:36:08 am »
The whole voting system is weak.Has so many dangerous features which can be exploited to death by wealthy holders.
Take control over committee with x32 and you take control over bitassets income.
Get 11 witnesses voted in and you control the chain.

People are going to monitor and pay with their own investments to protect bitshares from these attacks ?


Personly i'm positive for voting changes but discussed within the community to not have these risky wholes and without destroying confidence that bitshares can't be controled by a single person.

This voting system mainly benefits BEOS and makes the reserve pool wide open to them to get the funding for their so desired gateway integration.

Who is going to pay millions of BTS to retort beos attempt getting funding ?
They can win ten's of millions of BTS what is the guy winning who is going to protect the reserve pool ?
Only a loss.Who is going to do that ?

This is the potential threat.

But want to get pay from the reserve pool is not a cost-effective operation,take control over bitassets income is a good way.
It is dangerous for this account to get 32X VP,if he want to picked up sesame and lost watermelon?

But it is still better than the old system, use vote of the margin position to rebalance the big vote like BEOS is another dangerous behavior,very easy lost control.

About control 11 witnesses, this the design problem of DPOS witneess, the DPOS witneess design is a disaster,let's learn the EHT2.0 and VSYS to improve it.

No design can stop the vote type like BEOS,as he control the bts in wallet directly, he is a exchange and rainfall again and again, the people love these too much...

So what i think is only locked position will have full VP,unfreeze time is more less, may be 7 days,let they go to support wittness get dividend, one witness one vote,let 21 witness to instead of committee.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 08:43:01 am by binggo »

Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2020, 08:46:38 am »
当然我可能理解这种机制是为了给bts持有量少者利用锁仓时间倍数来获取更大的声音,但是大象的腿即使瘦三圈还是比蚂蚁粗,这是任何机制都无法避开的,但可能会好过没有声音

Online Thul3

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2020, 09:06:22 am »
Big holders like beos or alt can lock for 360 days 100million bts which is not an issue and get 400 million votes +  remaining 200 milliion votes.Who is going to oppose them ?Where do you find on the other side 100 million bts willing to lock  ?
Such a system favours big holders giving them the opportunity to get even more stronger if there is such a will from their side.


Also BTS was created as utlity token with the funcionality to be used as collateral and main currency on DEX.This voting system is in deny with that functionality as you can't participate in the ecosystem creating bitassets and getting at the same time the same amount of votes as being inactive to participate in bitshares progress.


A general question.

Is a BTS holder who doesn't use his BTS better than somebody who uses his BTS in bitshares ecosystem for which it was constructed ?
The simple holder non active member gets a benefit of up to 8 times VP from his BTS where the active member who is using his BTS activly on bitshares dex gets punished for it?

A non active member should have the possibility to have up to 8 times more voting power than an active member ?



Do we really favor inactive members over active members?

« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 09:35:32 am by Thul3 »

Offline matle85

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2020, 09:35:25 am »
My summary in English after reading Google Translate:

1.   Voter Decay – vote decay starts after 360 days of voting inactivity. The reduction is 12.5% and then a further 12.5% every 45 days. After 675 days of voting inactivity the voting weight is zero.
2.   Committee Voting – one BTS is equal to one committee vote so it can no longer be reused multiple times. If you vote for 3 people, then 1/3 of your voting weight goes to each of them.
3.   Lock Up voting mechanism – lock up BTS for increased voting power. The ratios are 180d/360d/720d eading to 2x/4x/8x voting power. You can also lock up BTS permanently and get up to 32x voting power with the remaining BTS you hold (not quite clear on this). It takes 15d to gain voting power for your lock up.
4.   Voting rules after permanent lock up takes place
4.1   Accounts without a lock up position will have zero weighting (I don’t understand this).
4.2   Collateral BTS will no longer be allowed to vote.[/li][/list]

In my view item 1, item 2 and item 4.2 sound very sensible and like an improvement to proper functioning of consensus.

Item 3 is interesting and I can understand the thought process behind it (empowering small holders etc) but I think we will see some unintended consequences when the big holders decide to lock up their holdings.

As a group I think the changes are positive for proper functioning of consensus and they eliminate some real problems/oddities that put us in a bad position. I suspect we will have some problems with the lock up voting / multiplier but hopefully less than we have now.

In terms of how it has been done…Abit has taken steps to fix a broken consensus system without first seeking approval of that broken consensus system. It is an interesting challenge of decentralised governance and consensus – if the system of decision making is broken then should it be allowed to continue its death spiral or is it better for someone to step up and make the necessary changes?


Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2020, 09:41:29 am »
Big holders like beos or alt can lock for 360 days 100million bts which is not an issue and get 400 million votes.Who is going to oppose them ?Where do you find on the other side 100 million bts willing to lock ?
Such a system favours big holders giving them the opportunity to get even more stronger if there is such a will from their side.


Also BTS was created as utlity token with the funcionality to be used as collateral.This voting system is in deny with that functionality as you can't participate in the ecosystem creating bitassets and getting more votes to participate in bitshares progress.


A general question.

Is a BTS holder who doesn't use his BTS better than somebody who uses his BTS in bitshares ecosystem for which it was constructed ?
The simple holder non active member gets a benefit of up to 8 times VP from his BTS where the active member who is using his BTS activly on bitshares dex gets punished for it?

A non active member should have the possibility to have up to 8 times more voting power than an active member ?


Collateral and participate ecosystem is trading behaviour not governance behaviors, the trading system and collateral system is part functions of BTS,

It's just like professional standard of the SEC staff,they can't trade in stocks,so the governance should be separated, shouldn't be effected by the trading behaviour,if the governance behaviors was effected by trading behaviour,what will happened i think we all clear about that.
Governance behaviors is not inactive, it is a very important avtive for system.

No one can stop BEOS and alt even they didn't lock to get VP, but still no one can stop the more and more vote of collateral when the price rise, then you will find there is not 36X for vote of collateral,the vote of collateral will become 100X in a very short time,then they will control everything.


I think the divergence is long locked time to get more VP, 2x/4x/8x voting power, the potential threat,if we just locked to get full VP not times VP, if it's more better?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:14:00 am by binggo »

Offline matle85

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2020, 09:53:07 am »
Big holders like beos or alt can lock for 360 days 100million bts which is not an issue and get 400 million votes +  remaining 200 milliion votes.Who is going to oppose them ?Where do you find on the other side 100 million bts willing to lock  ?
Such a system favours big holders giving them the opportunity to get even more stronger if there is such a will from their side.


Also BTS was created as utlity token with the funcionality to be used as collateral and main currency on DEX.This voting system is in deny with that functionality as you can't participate in the ecosystem creating bitassets and getting at the same time the same amount of votes as being inactive to participate in bitshares progress.


A general question.

Is a BTS holder who doesn't use his BTS better than somebody who uses his BTS in bitshares ecosystem for which it was constructed ?
The simple holder non active member gets a benefit of up to 8 times VP from his BTS where the active member who is using his BTS activly on bitshares dex gets punished for it?

A non active member should have the possibility to have up to 8 times more voting power than an active member ?



Do we really favor inactive members over active members?

I think that the lock mechanism will be used by some big holders so there will be some unintended consequences - I guess that by locking their BTS they are at least now committed tangibly to the long term performance of the chain and the impact of their voting... I suppose the hope is also that the 'locked' BTS will increase scarcity and help drive the price up.

Re: the collateral point - in the existing (previous?) system debt holders end up with a disproportianately large vote (based on debt + new BTS they buy with that debt) which they are then able to use to dictate the functioning of the chain and artificially protect the debt positions. Thats a complete failure of the system.

One option would be to include bitUSD, bitCNY etc in voting weight so holders of these assets are not left out of the voting system. I guess that could also have some unintended consequences (someone holding a lot of bitUSD might want to push the price down). It is very hard when financial incentives and governance overlaps as things become very messy, separating them out as far as practical is probably a good idea.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 09:56:17 am by matle85 »

Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2020, 10:27:49 am »
偏题的话:
任何投票机制都不能够阻止大票仓的行为,这是DPOS机制中致命性的缺陷,随着筹码的财阀化及利用人贪便宜的心思用各种空投来取得大票仓,最终都会导致DPOS越来越趋向中心化控制,想要摆脱这种缺陷,只能是重新设计一套合理的见证机制,足够多的见证人数量,足够高的抗攻击操控成本,让见证人尽量摆脱票仓控制,让见证人投票来决定系统的一切方向。当然这只是我个人的想法。


像这个投票机制最大的作用是将BTS从滑向抵押票权的深渊中拉了回来,至于锁仓时间获得的票权越多是否合适,这要看锁仓所消耗的时间成本设计是否能够抵挡人性中的贪婪。

关键是找出锁仓人最可能的作恶时间点在什么时候?

这种锁仓时间获取倍数越多我感觉并不是太好,很容易会形成一个大票仓锁了横行的局面,导致一言堂,其它自由投票人失去投票积极性,投票有效性大幅降低。而且并不是锁定越多越好,锁的太多会严重影响流动性...
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:38:00 am by binggo »

Online Thul3

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2020, 06:40:47 am »
I would claim that majority of bitshares users have no idea how to use cli wallet based on my personal experience.

This means they have already a disadvantage in the voting system against the few who use it.

Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2020, 06:58:14 am »
I would claim that majority of bitshares users have no idea how to use cli wallet based on my personal experience.

This means they have already a disadvantage in the voting system against the few who use it.

Maybe need to fund UI?

but i think who didn‘t have locked forever positions can support the wittness then he gets the full normal VP may be more better and easy, one wittness one vote.


简易中文cli_wallet教程,没有电脑动手能力及时间的话,只看看就好:
https://github.com/shulthz/BTS-/issues/1
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 10:23:43 am by binggo »

Offline 时光旅行机

Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2020, 01:33:15 pm »
能涨就行,管他娘的,巨蟹不也偷偷改锁喂价

Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2020, 12:33:00 am »
Now can use BTS++ v6.2 to creat locked vote position

----------------------------------------------

BitShares移动端钱包 / BTS++ v6.2 更新 (iOS和安卓均以更新)。
更新日志
  1、新增创建锁仓投票功能。
  2、资产界面添加【锁仓】入口。
  3、部分BUG修复。增强稳定性。

官网APP下载地址:https://app.btspp.io/
GooglePlay地址:http://t.cn/EMb19J7
官网:https://btspp.io/en/index.html
电报:https://t.me/btsplusplus
GitHub源代码仓库:https://github.com/bitshares/bitshares-mobile-app

-----------------------

对于我们这些韭菜,永久锁仓一个bts意思一下就行了

« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 12:34:45 am by binggo »

Offline lovegan007

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2020, 01:18:45 am »
重大利好,BTS要飞了,赶紧梭哈,之前是我没理解abit,现在理解了,abit干得漂亮,为BTS增加了一个牛逼的功能,这下想不飞都难了,这功能完美,牛逼,比TM的减半还要牛逼得多了,BTS不涨上2块钱,天理难容啊。

Offline lovegan007

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2020, 02:07:34 am »
锁仓对工会完全没有影响,工会也可以锁仓,票也是公平的,又不是针对公会,是大家都同样条件的。 这功能牛逼哄哄的,比减半币要牛逼得多了,永久的牛逼下去,要飞了。要飞,为了票,这下锁仓要打破头,要流血了,要牛逼了,要飞了。BTS要报复性上涨了,这次下车的人基本被甩下车了,后面的路一片美好,上涨空间无限。

Offline xixi002020

Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2020, 03:08:38 am »
甘少炒币炒出人格分裂了,abit要负全责

Offline binggo

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Re: 4.0 投票机制变化
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2020, 03:11:09 am »
锁仓对工会完全没有影响,工会也可以锁仓,票也是公平的,又不是针对公会,是大家都同样条件的。 这功能牛逼哄哄的,比减半币要牛逼得多了,永久的牛逼下去,要飞了。要飞,为了票,这下锁仓要打破头,要流血了,要牛逼了,要飞了。BTS要报复性上涨了,这次下车的人基本被甩下车了,后面的路一片美好,上涨空间无限。

CN-VOTE 没有抵押的筹码算算也有至少3千万,也算是一个大票仓了。