Author Topic: Beyond Bitcoin Hangouts -- Delegate Poll  (Read 2308 times)

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Offline wackou

fuzz, we NEED YOU!! ..

+5%, and I'd like to add that even though delegates should be held accountable and their position justified by the value they bring to the network (result-oriented, etc.), there are some tasks that are unquantifiable (in $$) but bring undeniable value, such as bringing together a community (wasn't that what the C in DAC stands for, I can't remember exactly ;D). You won't see that directly in the marketcap, but that's one thing you need to have to survive in a very competitive crypto-landscape (which allow people to stick together even though there are no immediate profits). So you definitely have my vote too.
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Offline xeroc

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lol @hadrian .. fully agree!!

fuzz, we NEED YOU!! ..

Offline hadrian

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Word association game!

I'll say a word, you say what comes into your head! Ready?....fuzzy!

  • integrity
  • hard working
  • honest
  • valuable
  • core
  • reliable
  • bumelf
  • worth it
  • DELEGATE!!!!

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Offline CLains

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Offline fuzzy

However, I hope you realize that you would not be getting an "iron rice bowl" by being voted in as a media delegate (or whatever you would call it). Eventually, as the market cap goes up, others would see how lucrative a delegate position could be and would come up with their own competing proposals. And then stakeholders would have the choice of deciding which proposals give the most value to the chain.

I honestly was not expecting such a high rate of "yes" votes.  As far as the "iron bowl" thing, I hope that by the time everything is said and done, we all will have opportunities to produce value in multiple ways that fulfill a very real need in our ecosystem(s).  I also think that when we start reaching really high marketcaps to the point where people will want to displace this effort for the pay I will be willing to take at that marketcap, that we will all probably feel like we have iron bowls due to the increase in value in our stakes alone.  Of course I am also quite happy with a fulfilling career with a clay bowl (not sure if that would make sense) as long as I can help contribute to my family's well being.  Doing what one loves and also being able to fulfill one's basic needs at the same time seems to me as wealthy as one could ever hope to be. 

Most importantly, however, I hope that when someone comes around who wants to take that position, that those who vote them in do so with one caveat:  that they do everything in their power to give everyone a voice.   Of course I have little power over whether or not this matters to the community at that time but it seems it would be a very valuable concern for all of us to have. 

Regardless, thank you for your honest opinion.   

*One caveat--when one of the extremely wealthy BTS whales here buys "bitshares island", I would like to be able to join everyone for at least one good drink on the beach.  *
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 08:29:41 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline Shentist

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1) Delegate Landscape:
If I were to run a delegate at a high pay rate, it would first cost approximately 65,000 for a registration fee (not accounting for upkeep and server costs).  This would mean that at a 100% pay rate, it would take about 2 weeks to break even with respect to the registration fee.  Of course, running at a lower % would take longer to reach a level where earned BTS is held as profit:

100%  2 weeks
75%    3 Weeks
50%    4 Weeks (1 month)
25%    8 Weeks (2 months)
10%    20 Weeks (5 months)



Isnt it always two weeks of pay to register a delegate, regardless of pay rate?

So a 10% delegate would cost 1/10 as much to register as a 100% delegate?

Hm...good question.  I am not certain.  This is a good point.  I'll look into it further, but that was not how I had taken it.  Of course I could be wrong as I haven't really asked the question before.  If someone can provide clarity feel free to do so.

it is always 2 weeks, because you get the same procentage you wanted.

i am not attenting the mumble hanghout but i am always listening them on soundcloud. it is the best thing after the weekend to here new stuff from bytemaster and co.

Offline fuzzy

1) Delegate Landscape:
If I were to run a delegate at a high pay rate, it would first cost approximately 65,000 for a registration fee (not accounting for upkeep and server costs).  This would mean that at a 100% pay rate, it would take about 2 weeks to break even with respect to the registration fee.  Of course, running at a lower % would take longer to reach a level where earned BTS is held as profit:

100%  2 weeks
75%    3 Weeks
50%    4 Weeks (1 month)
25%    8 Weeks (2 months)
10%    20 Weeks (5 months)



Isnt it always two weeks of pay to register a delegate, regardless of pay rate?

So a 10% delegate would cost 1/10 as much to register as a 100% delegate?

Hm...good question.  I am not certain.  This is a good point.  I'll look into it further, but that was not how I had taken it.  Of course I could be wrong as I haven't really asked the question before.  If someone can provide clarity feel free to do so.
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Offline cass

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Offline onceuponatime

I voted "yes".

I am very appreciative of the mumble sessions to date.

It is important to have this channel of communication that you facilitate for many reasons, one of which is to have a backup communication when delegates/forums are DDOS'd.

However, I hope you realize that you would not be getting an "iron rice bowl" by being voted in as a media delegate (or whatever you would call it). Eventually, as the market cap goes up, others would see how lucrative a delegate position could be and would come up with their own competing proposals. And then stakeholders would have the choice of deciding which proposals give the most value to the chain.

Competition is good.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 09:04:07 pm by onceuponatime »

Offline Ander

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1) Delegate Landscape:
If I were to run a delegate at a high pay rate, it would first cost approximately 65,000 for a registration fee (not accounting for upkeep and server costs).  This would mean that at a 100% pay rate, it would take about 2 weeks to break even with respect to the registration fee.  Of course, running at a lower % would take longer to reach a level where earned BTS is held as profit:

100%  2 weeks
75%    3 Weeks
50%    4 Weeks (1 month)
25%    8 Weeks (2 months)
10%    20 Weeks (5 months)



Isnt it always two weeks of pay to register a delegate, regardless of pay rate?

So a 10% delegate would cost 1/10 as much to register as a 100% delegate?
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Offline fuzzy

to be honest here!

poll is nice, but in matter of fact you should ask bytemaster if he is willing to support your delegate. Without his support it will be really hard to get elected, and with his support it happens in a blink of an eye.

So just register your delegate after you talked with byti.

This may be true...but the reason I started the hangouts was to form a POWERFUL COMMUNITY that forced developers to recognize the value of sharedropping on it.  I wanted to help the community realize how powerful they all are.  We live in times when people feel powerless--this is an illusion and I hope to help people see through it and guide each other to the truth that it is all of us who have the power in this world.  It is our decisions that dictate history and forge our future for coming generations.  No one is without value here...and as such I want to ask all of you.  I am confident that the devs and those with large stakes will listen to the voices here.   

If I undercut the community and simply go to Bytemaster and the Developers without first giving a voice to the community, I am serving as an antithesis to everything I started this to do.  It might be ignorant to a degree to be idealistic on this level, but if we can't truly work to be different from the current system we will never make the world a better place than it is today.  I want a better world than what we have today...even if it means not having a delegate.
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Offline Shentist

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to be honest here!

poll is nice, but in matter of fact you should ask bytemaster if he is willing to support your delegate. Without his support it will be really hard to get elected, and with his support it happens in a blink of an eye.

So just register your delegate after you talked with byti.

Offline fuzzy

Let me start by thanking you for all the work you've done for BTS since day one, the hangouts give a deep insight into BTS. Sometimes I feel they give more info, than all posts combined in this forum.

1) The problem I personally have with delegates, is that I find it hard to estimate a value.
2) If there was a delegate handing out apples, or bitusd. And we knew how much they were spending, giving away than this would make it more easy.
 

1) that is why I am so pumped that Vote joined BTS--when this is functional (and easy to use for the entire community), we can have a better gauge on the consensus of value.
2) I promise to give an honest (and auditable) accounting of the payouts and initiatives being funded.

At current marketcap I think that the devs surely deserve a 100% delegate, but if the marketcap were to get tenfold. What would the number be, we would be satisfied with?

I personally feel that at current marketcap, Rune's assessment that delegates should initially be allowed to have more than one 100% paid delegate is more than fair.  As the marketcap goes up 10x, I still think a single 100% delegate for full-time devs is acceptable (as long as their contributions are out in the open).  However, when we reach 100x...now we start reaching an area where I start agreeing that community consensus will be extremely important.  I have no doubt this will not always be pretty, but if we weather the growing pains...and all have seen an increase of 100x in our investments--I find myself thinking everyone will be pretty happy overall regardless.

I would like delegates to include this in their proposals, if we hit a X marketcap the percentage would go down to Y etc....

As for "X" I can't give you exact numbers (this is so damned bleeding edge that I feel like I'm in a dream walking blindly through a dark tunnel...knowing paradise is on the other side but having no clue what pitfalls lay ahead or how far it is to the end). 
However, I can say that once it reaches a point where I can make an honest living off of doing 2a-2c (maybe $1000-$1500 a month excluding payments for upkeep and the rest of the team currently helping me),  I would like to focus my efforts on expanding into 2d-2g (and possibly more if other initiatives become possible). 

I can also say if we reach the point where we are as large as bitcoin, and 100% delegates are making $225,000 per month, I would sincerely hope that the community would back something more than $1000 a month for my efforts (the amount would likely come, yet again, from one of those polls I seem so incessant on using).  I would like to be able to do what I love (which is obviously this) without ever having to worry about justifying why I walked away from other opportunities to my loved ones.  When we reach bitcoin's marketcap, I would also hope to gain consensus toward putting aside an extra % to ensure $10,000+ per month of delegate fees to go toward a legal fund for our community so we can protect those whose rights are encroached upon by corrupt forces who will attack us.  I would hope that this means of protecting our community would be mimicked by all other delegates as well.

Finally, if we go down to "Y"...even if Y= near zero, as long as our community still wants this to live.  At an extremely low marketcap, I will still be able to hold weekly hangouts...and will get a second job to help pay to keep this thing so it never dies.  Freedom and prosperity that comes from it is far too precious for us to walk away from what BTS could do for it--worldwide.  I took an Oath a long time ago toward that end and do not intend to give up on it anytime soon.

A small point, I wouldn't want BTS to pay for hangouts for forks that sharedropped PTS/AGS and not BTS.  Free access to the mumble server to address the BTS community should be one of the perks of dropping on BTS.

This is very valid in my mind.  I am hoping that over time these hangouts will grow to a level where every altchain sees it as absolutely necessary to sharedrop at least 10/10/10 PTS/AGS/BTS to have hangouts organized by myself and the "official" crew--and to maximize community turnout from the very beginning.  Of course, this would be a place where I would need a blockchain-based polling mechanism to ensure the community drives consensus...and as stated before I honestly can't trust forum polls with decisions that effect every investor.  I truthfully even have a measure of concern for a poll like this...but the outcome of this poll really only effects me, so I can deal with it.   
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 06:30:42 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline fuzzy

if not you, who should we elect?

But it would be good to have some planned numbers how you want to use the funds.

First off, thank you for your kind words.  The nature of this project makes it difficult to evaluate how valuable it is to the community--save, perhaps the number of people in attendance at hangouts), so feedback helps me recognize it is considered valuable and appreciated

As for your questions.  I have placed a rough outline of my plans in part 2 (Value Proposition) and sublevels 2a-2g.  The only problem with giving specific numbers at this point is that this initiative is really unique in two distinct ways: 1) It has literally never been done before in the cryptosphere.  2) BitShares itself is completely unique to the cryptosphere--so it makes it very difficult to give details with respect to how much funding will go where and at what point in the future that funding will be dispersed--because much of that will depend on events and community opinion in times well into the future (and therefore very difficult to predict). For this reason, even though I would love to give exact numbers, I feel doing so would currently be disingenuous.

However, this is not to say that it isn't an important question.  Since I cannot give numbers I would keep an open record on who is paid and why they are paid.  Additionally, in the future when we have the wallet that enables transparent polling/voting, I would like to use that functionality to help gauge the community's opinions on hot topics and potential paths moving forward.  Unfortunately while bitshares itself is in Beta and lacking most of the functionalities that I feel are absolutely necessary for proper expansion of the ecosystem, my hands are tied.  I could use the forum for polls, but I am not really comfortable basing hot topic decisions that effect everyone here on forum-based voting due to sybil attack exposure. 

I want to be honest here with everyone and say that, at present, I have the opportunity to step away from this project and work for double what I am making right now at my current job (which means I would be investing a large portion into BTS and its sharedropped chains and paying down some small student loans).  If I were to step away, I would spend my free time working on a cert as a Cisco Certified Network Administrator (CCNA) so I could eventually get an even higher paying job than the opportunity currently standing in front of me--this would mean that I could easily make $60,000 a year (and if I even put 10,000 of that into bitshares, it would make me BTS rich pretty quick).  The problem is...I truly love what I am doing here.  I love organizing our community and it fulfills me to be able to help facilitate this unique experience--especially knowing that every other ecosystem seems to lack such consideration for their potential investors.  If I could do this free indefinitely, and know that I could help protect my family from the dangerous times I see approaching in my country (I live in the "Land of the Free, home of the NDAA"), there would be no question which course I would take.  Unfortunately the harsh reality dictates that I begin taking all the factors into consideration. 

Now don't get me wrong.  If I don't get a high paying delegate, it will not stop me from doing the weekly hangout for BTS (and PLAY), but it will keep me from being able to expand into the areas I outlined above.  It will force me to keep this as a severely limited part time hobby as I begin having to take more responsibility to work on building my family's safety-net. 

I hope this gives an honest assessment of the situation and an overview of the factors behind my current reasons for approaching the community.  More importantly, I hope this outlines why I am reserved in providing specifics so early in the game (because it is still very early in the game--even though it doesn't feel like it to those who have been here for over a year now.)
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Offline matt608

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I voted yes.  The mumble sessions are a core part of Bitshares,  They bring legitimacy, re-assure investors and are a great place for prospective 'shareholders/community members' to have confidence in Bitshares planted in them.  They help clear up a lot of issues regarding the complex and evolving nature of Bitshares making it possible to keep up with important events efficiently, and they make it more enjoyable, a real community rather than cold hard spamfest like bitcointalk.  Making people be 'public people' who join the decentralised team has its advantages, it means people have to treat each other in a civil and respectful manner, making bitshares a nice place to be.  Trolls wont get voted in, so they don't live here.  Mumble hangouts are heart of the community.  As Bitshares grows I hope we get hundreds of people in there in what is a unique spectacle so far on the Internet.

Great idea on inviting crypto journalists to take part.

Before I would actually vote I would need to see a rough cost-breakdown, how much you plan to pay yourself vs use for promotion, upkeep etc.

A small point, I wouldn't want BTS to pay for hangouts for forks that sharedropped PTS/AGS and not BTS.  Free access to the mumble server to address the BTS community should be one of the perks of dropping on BTS.

Glad you are thinking of 'taking the plunge' + keeping going (and expanding!) everything.  :)