Author Topic: [video] BitShares DNS  (Read 6173 times)

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Offline bytemaster

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 09:00:41 pm »
Okay - toast is the man.  This guy is 20, and he's got potential... (1) He's sharp, (2) He's a good speaker and has potential to become a really good speaker (3) He can develop software like a champ.  I3 could really grow with toast and vice versa, my two cents

Offline jwiz168

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 09:47:47 pm »
hey toast why is it that on your video presentation about bitshare dns, only AGS is honored ? how about PTS?

Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2014, 10:03:00 pm »
It was to communicate "angelshare funding", I didn't mean to imply distribution. DNS will be 50/50 pts/ags.
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Offline jwiz168

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2014, 10:10:30 pm »
thank you toast  8)

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2014, 10:10:47 pm »
Good to know the progress of BTS DNS, it's exciting to see so many DACs working in parallel.
BTS committee member:jademont

Offline santaclause102

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 10:23:22 pm »
Wouldnt it be necessary that some organization (more abstractly a consensus about who handles it) that handles a domain name register to acknoledge this system?
I know Namecoin or BTS DNS are supposed to replace exactly this. But is the availability of the system as such enough. Doesnt it need some "political effort" to make this the system that everyone agrees upon worldwide?
 

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 10:29:13 pm »
Wouldnt it be necessary that some organization (more abstractly a consensus about who handles it) that handles a domain name register to acknoledge this system?
I know Namecoin or BTS DNS are supposed to replace exactly this. But is the availability of the system as such enough. Doesnt it need some "political effort" to make this the system that everyone agrees upon worldwide?

Who, exactly, would you trust to do this?

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/03/16/us-plans-to-give-up-oversight-web-domain-manager/?intcmp=latestnews

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Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 10:36:06 pm »
Wouldnt it be necessary that some organization (more abstractly a consensus about who handles it) that handles a domain name register to acknoledge this system?
I know Namecoin or BTS DNS are supposed to replace exactly this. But is the availability of the system as such enough. Doesnt it need some "political effort" to make this the system that everyone agrees upon worldwide?

In short, no.  This system can exist in parallel with current systems, and software will be made available to use it.  Eventually once it's become popular enough the major browser vendors may provide integration with this system by default, but it will work fine without any support from existing DNS "authorities."

Offline santaclause102

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 10:41:30 pm »
So browser (copamnies / organizations) are the ones that would have to accept one of those systems? Can they accept a few in parallel?

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 10:53:21 pm »
For it to be completely mainstream I think either the operating system or the browser needs to integrate with BitShares DNS by default.  Without this, our audience is limited to people who are comfortable installing browser extensions, which seriously should be almost everyone by now, but probably isn't.

Offline santaclause102

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 11:24:24 pm »
Who gets the 1,48€ I pay atm for a .dom domain? And where does godaddy (or any such company) get their right from to sell domains? Godaddy pays who?

Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 11:26:44 pm »
Who gets the 1,48€ I pay atm for a .dom domain? And where does godaddy (or any such company) get their right from to sell domains? Godaddy pays who?

A hierarchy of organizations with ICANN at the top (I think).

Browser extensions are 1-click install nowadays

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Offline santaclause102

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 11:32:28 pm »
Who gets the 1,48€ I pay atm for a .dom domain? And where does godaddy (or any such company) get their right from to sell domains? Godaddy pays who?

A hierarchy of organizations with ICANN at the top (I think).

Browser extensions are 1-click install nowadays

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And it is up to the brwoser to choose the ICANN register or any other (or even a few in parallel?)?

Offline onceuponatime

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 11:34:06 pm »
So browser (copamnies / organizations) are the ones that would have to accept one of those systems? Can they accept a few in parallel?

freespeechme.org  has a free plugin for firefox that handles .bit

I'm sure we could do the same for .dns


Offline phoenix

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2014, 01:20:56 am »
Impressive, I like where the DAC industry is going!
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Offline yellowecho

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2014, 03:24:19 am »
Okay - toast is the man.  This guy is 20, and he's got potential... (1) He's sharp, (2) He's a good speaker and has potential to become a really good speaker (3) He can develop software like a champ.  I3 could really grow with toast and vice versa, my two cents

 +5% Toast FTW !
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Offline blackbeard

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2014, 06:07:39 am »
So browser (copamnies / organizations) are the ones that would have to accept one of those systems? Can they accept a few in parallel?

freespeechme.org  has a free plugin for firefox that handles .bit

I'm sure we could do the same for .dns

dotbit.me just released a one click chrome extension

Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2014, 06:12:51 am »
no worries, let's just honestly compete over a long period of time

if we pick different TLDs we won't really interfere with each other and we can learn from each other
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Offline sipak

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2014, 12:34:38 pm »
I cant get my head arround the economics of domain auction proposed in the video. Why should anybody not actually winning the auction get half of profits? Why this is applicable only to the second highest bid? At least I see the following problem:

I can always use two different identities to make two subsequent highest bids: for example 1000 and 1001 immediately one after another. If 1001 wins I will get the domain for half of that price. If not somebody else will win it doing 1002 and 1003 effectively eliminating true second highest bidder.

Intuitively I don't think this gives any good incentives. In auction we only want bidders who actually want to buy the domain, not profit seeking bidders-speculators, so shareholder could get more profit from true market auction:

If the highest bidder for "domain.bit" is willing to pay maximum 1000 because of his economic calculation and the market for this domain is dense, then the final price will be near this price, so we don't need to pay any bidder to speculate the price higher.

Do we have any real world example of proposed type of "sponsored" auction anyway?

Offline CrazyCriple

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2014, 12:48:38 pm »
i like the concept but I don't understand how this will be integrated in the existing DNS infrastructure. All existing ISP's would have to switch? Or is this a whole different sector?


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Offline phoenix

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2014, 03:52:26 pm »
I cant get my head arround the economics of domain auction proposed in the video. Why should anybody not actually winning the auction get half of profits? Why this is applicable only to the second highest bid? At least I see the following problem:

I can always use two different identities to make two subsequent highest bids: for example 1000 and 1001 immediately one after another. If 1001 wins I will get the domain for half of that price. If not somebody else will win it doing 1002 and 1003 effectively eliminating true second highest bidder.

In order to try this you need 2001 coins. Your first identity pays 1000 coins to the pool, then your second identity pays 1000.5 to the first identity, and 0.5 to the pool, and has to pay a transaction fee. Your net cost is 1000.5 coins plus transaction fees. If somebody beats your bid, you still get half the difference between your second bid and their first bid, so you do make a profit, even if you aren't the second to last bid
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Offline CWEvans

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2014, 04:13:39 pm »
i like the concept but I don't understand how this will be integrated in the existing DNS infrastructure. All existing ISP's would have to switch? Or is this a whole different sector?

Initially, you'll need to install a browser plugin that knows how to resolve the domain name.

Offline Overthetop

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2014, 05:35:16 pm »
It was to communicate "angelshare funding", I didn't mean to imply distribution. DNS will be 50/50 pts/ags.
That is great!  +5%
and how about the volume of DNS?  :D
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Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2014, 05:59:45 pm »
It was to communicate "angelshare funding", I didn't mean to imply distribution. DNS will be 50/50 pts/ags.
That is great!  +5%
and how about the volume of DNS?  :D

Do you mean initial supply? I'm thinking either 5 million or 50 million.
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Offline vikram

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2014, 10:10:49 am »
Comments from someone when I posted to /r/Namecoin: http://www.reddit.com/r/Namecoin/comments/20m3wu/video_comparison_of_bitshares_dns_vs_namecoin/

Quote
Just popping in to point out some innacuracies after watching the video.
  • you state "namecoin price per domain is fixed", that is incorrect. Namecoin has been around for years now, the cost of the domains started out at 50 NMC each. They appear to be fixed only for now.
  • Bitshares' PoS being better than Namecoin's PoW is a strawman argument, as no extra energy whatsoever is spent mining namecoins. Mining namecoins is virtually free, so long as the Bitcoin network exists.
  • You could have put a bit more planning into the video, I am not impressed watching you hum and haw about what you're going to talk about next... but I understand I would probably make a similarly awkward video. Just watch it and edit it before you release it next time, you will be received much better I guarantee it.
  • yes and no are not points. Also, I wish you would have elaborated more on what exactly a domain auction is and how it works via bitshares.
  • you come off as snarky/rude towards namecoiners by smirking every time you mention how namecoin works. (like duhhh, right guys? Namecoin is soooo dumb and outdated!) We've been around for a lot longer than you, son. Give us some respect.
  • who/what do you guys keep looking at off in the far distance when speaking to the camera!??! Jesus! lol
  • it is not set in stone that namecoin domain purchase transactions will be eaten by the network, miners may receive them at a later date after registration in the future, namecoin is still in it's infancy.
  • wtf is "ageoshare funding"? Is that what you said? And then wrote AGS funding? I looked it up and couldn't find anything about it.
  • claiming namecoin has no funding is an outright lie.
  • that's where I turned off the video.
All in all, you guys need some serious work on your professionalism, bullying competing coins, and public speaking skills. You failed at all 3 of those in this video.

Offline bytemaster

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2014, 08:27:27 pm »
Comments from someone when I posted to /r/Namecoin: http://www.reddit.com/r/Namecoin/comments/20m3wu/video_comparison_of_bitshares_dns_vs_namecoin/

Quote
Just popping in to point out some innacuracies after watching the video.
  • you state "namecoin price per domain is fixed", that is incorrect. Namecoin has been around for years now, the cost of the domains started out at 50 NMC each. They appear to be fixed only for now.
  • Bitshares' PoS being better than Namecoin's PoW is a strawman argument, as no extra energy whatsoever is spent mining namecoins. Mining namecoins is virtually free, so long as the Bitcoin network exists.
  • You could have put a bit more planning into the video, I am not impressed watching you hum and haw about what you're going to talk about next... but I understand I would probably make a similarly awkward video. Just watch it and edit it before you release it next time, you will be received much better I guarantee it.
  • yes and no are not points. Also, I wish you would have elaborated more on what exactly a domain auction is and how it works via bitshares.
  • you come off as snarky/rude towards namecoiners by smirking every time you mention how namecoin works. (like duhhh, right guys? Namecoin is soooo dumb and outdated!) We've been around for a lot longer than you, son. Give us some respect.
  • who/what do you guys keep looking at off in the far distance when speaking to the camera!??! Jesus! lol
  • it is not set in stone that namecoin domain purchase transactions will be eaten by the network, miners may receive them at a later date after registration in the future, namecoin is still in it's infancy.
  • wtf is "ageoshare funding"? Is that what you said? And then wrote AGS funding? I looked it up and couldn't find anything about it.
  • claiming namecoin has no funding is an outright lie.
  • that's where I turned off the video.
All in all, you guys need some serious work on your professionalism, bullying competing coins, and public speaking skills. You failed at all 3 of those in this video.

Interesting feedback... but the answers clearly show that we need to improve our descriptions of things:

1) From the perspective of NMC holders, they are paying a heavy fee to 'miners' who may happen to share work with Bitcoin.  The point is it doesn't matter what the 'profit margins' are for the miners, paying them is still an expense on the network.

2) Price fixing even if the price changes by algorithm is still price fixing.  In other words, at any given point in time all names are the same price and that price is not set by market forces.

3) The purpose of the video was to get something out there quick, not to spend hours planning and editing. 

4) If there are any mistakes regarding funding that would be an honest misunderstanding. 


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Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2014, 08:30:55 pm »
Yeah that guy doesn't get the economics yet. He has a point about video quality though, please *don't* use the video on the main site. That should be another animated "what is bitcoin?"-style video. I will make more informal videos but they should all be forum-level exposure.
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Offline Gentso1

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2014, 01:28:30 am »
Don't worry about the quality of the video or the fact that you may not have looked the camera in the eye.
No one invested in pts or ags because they cared about how well you spoke in the video.

I personally thought it was a quick informal way, that didn't cost you and your team much time but also allowed you to get your point out

So thanks for the quick explanation

and I believe you have some coding to get back to :D

Offline Ohpinot

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 05:24:26 am »
Video was great, do more of them.  Ignore the haters.  Honestly if you were spending months making really professional videos instead of DACs, I don't think anyone would be happy.

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2014, 08:18:45 pm »
Video was great, do more of them.  Ignore the haters.  Honestly if you were spending months making really professional videos instead of DACs, I don't think anyone would be happy.

 +5% clear, concise and timely... thanks
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Offline muse-umum

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2014, 09:14:38 pm »
toast,

I still don't understand fully about the Auction part even refering the informtion here https://github.com/nmushegian/dns/blob/master/whitepaper.md

Can you please describe the process using an example ?

Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2014, 09:24:16 pm »
toast,

I still don't understand fully about the Auction part even refering the informtion here https://github.com/nmushegian/dns/blob/master/whitepaper.md

Can you please describe the process using an example ?

Is this more clear? I updated the paper

Quote
You can kick off an auction by sending a transaction with a domain claim output if that domain has never been bid on before, or is expired. The domain remains in auction until DNS_AUCTION_BLOCKS blocks have passed since the last bid on that domain. (Note: Because the auction "timer" is reset in this way, nobody gains from being able to make faster bids and so there is a rule that there can be at most one bid per name per block.)

Every time someone makes a bid, the previous bidder is paid back his original bid plus a small fraction of the difference between the and the previous bid. This gives speculators an incentive to drive up the price and a way to profit without squatting the domain and reselling it. The rest of the difference is paid as a dividend to the network. If the person who won the domain was just a speculator who cannot make use of it, they have strong incentive to sell it back to the market at a small loss because of the opportunity cost of the lost dividends while the domain is held.

The end result is that a domain will keep re-appearing on the market while fluctuating around its "true" (market-perceived) price, until someone who actually wants to make use of that name buys it at the market price.


So an example is:

"name" has never been taken before.

A bids 10 for "name"
B bids 15 for "name". A gets 12.5, the network gets 2.5 as dividends.
C bids 17 for "name". B gets 16, the network gets 1 as dividends.
~ Nobody bids for 3 days, C won the domain ~
C puts the name back up for sale at 12.
D bids 13. C gets 12.5, the network gets 0.5 as dividends.

Here the dividend ratio is 50%, in reality it will be higher.
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Offline muse-umum

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2014, 09:42:34 pm »
toast,

I still don't understand fully about the Auction part even refering the informtion here https://github.com/nmushegian/dns/blob/master/whitepaper.md

Can you please describe the process using an example ?

Is this more clear? I updated the paper

Quote
You can kick off an auction by sending a transaction with a domain claim output if that domain has never been bid on before, or is expired. The domain remains in auction until DNS_AUCTION_BLOCKS blocks have passed since the last bid on that domain. (Note: Because the auction "timer" is reset in this way, nobody gains from being able to make faster bids and so there is a rule that there can be at most one bid per name per block.)

Every time someone makes a bid, the previous bidder is paid back his original bid plus a small fraction of the difference between the and the previous bid. This gives speculators an incentive to drive up the price and a way to profit without squatting the domain and reselling it. The rest of the difference is paid as a dividend to the network. If the person who won the domain was just a speculator who cannot make use of it, they have strong incentive to sell it back to the market at a small loss because of the opportunity cost of the lost dividends while the domain is held.

The end result is that a domain will keep re-appearing on the market while fluctuating around its "true" (market-perceived) price, until someone who actually wants to make use of that name buys it at the market price.


So an example is:

"name" has never been taken before.

A bids 10 for "name"
B bids 15 for "name". A gets 12.5, the network gets 2.5 as dividends.
C bids 17 for "name". B gets 16, the network gets 1 as dividends.
~ Nobody bids for 3 days, C won the domain ~
C puts the name back up for sale at 12.
D bids 13. C gets 12.5, the network gets 0.5 as dividends.

Here the dividend ratio is 50%, in reality it will be higher.

Thanks, clear now.

Offline bytemaster

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2014, 10:45:13 pm »
toast,

I still don't understand fully about the Auction part even refering the informtion here https://github.com/nmushegian/dns/blob/master/whitepaper.md

Can you please describe the process using an example ?

Is this more clear? I updated the paper

Quote
You can kick off an auction by sending a transaction with a domain claim output if that domain has never been bid on before, or is expired. The domain remains in auction until DNS_AUCTION_BLOCKS blocks have passed since the last bid on that domain. (Note: Because the auction "timer" is reset in this way, nobody gains from being able to make faster bids and so there is a rule that there can be at most one bid per name per block.)

Every time someone makes a bid, the previous bidder is paid back his original bid plus a small fraction of the difference between the and the previous bid. This gives speculators an incentive to drive up the price and a way to profit without squatting the domain and reselling it. The rest of the difference is paid as a dividend to the network. If the person who won the domain was just a speculator who cannot make use of it, they have strong incentive to sell it back to the market at a small loss because of the opportunity cost of the lost dividends while the domain is held.

The end result is that a domain will keep re-appearing on the market while fluctuating around its "true" (market-perceived) price, until someone who actually wants to make use of that name buys it at the market price.


So an example is:

"name" has never been taken before.

A bids 10 for "name"
B bids 15 for "name". A gets 12.5, the network gets 2.5 as dividends.
C bids 17 for "name". B gets 16, the network gets 1 as dividends.
~ Nobody bids for 3 days, C won the domain ~
C puts the name back up for sale at 12.
D bids 13. C gets 12.5, the network gets 0.5 as dividends.

Here the dividend ratio is 50%, in reality it will be higher.

Thanks, clear now.

I would actually like to comment on this process some to encourage users to make larger bids rather than the minimum possible bid.

A bids 10 for "name" and pays the network 5 as dividends.
B bids 20 for "name", pays A 12.5 and the network 2.5
C bids 30 for "name", pays B 22.5 and the network 2.5
~ no body bids for 3 days, C won the domain for a total of 25
C puts the name back up for sale at 20
D bids 25 and pays it to C. 
E bids 27 and pays it to D.

After the initial bidding, the network does not collect fees from the auction except from the per-byte transaction fees.

Under these rules someone can secure a name cheaper if they bid higher initially because they increase the amount they must be outbid by to lose the name.  So if I attempt to do many small bids then chances are I would pay more than if I made a big bid and hope no one would be willing to raise the bar by 2x what I did.  If they do then I profit dramatically.   This means that the person who wants to actually own the name is motivated to bid their highest possible bid on the first go so that they might get the domain as cheaply as possible.     


 


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Offline mdw

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2014, 11:39:17 am »
I was glad to see the video, as there has been little other mention of BitShares DNS elsewhere. It had lots of good info. I did also listen to the radio show but it was completely void of useful information. Not much toast featured on there, basically just a boring rant about the awful Namecoin community.

Production quality on the video is weak, as noted in the subreddit, but I don't think people seeking information really care. Honestly I'm inclined to agree with some of the points made in that subreddit though. There seemed to be questionable assumptions put forth, really sloppy choices of terminology thoughout, and a dismissive attitude that does a disservice to legitimately interesting ideas. Rehearsal and editing can go a very long way to address these.

Kudos toast for spending time discussing the auction-style price discovery mechanism. I think it's a unique approach in the next-gen DNS project space and should be emphasized as it differentiates this approach from others. When you go to make the next video or presentation, it would be super effective to create some graphics ahead of time exactly like what was sketched out on the whiteboard, but find a way to clearly articulate the rationale for it.
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Offline toast

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Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2014, 03:04:10 pm »
I was glad to see the video, as there has been little other mention of BitShares DNS elsewhere. It had lots of good info. I did also listen to the radio show but it was completely void of useful information. Not much toast featured on there, basically just a boring rant about the awful Namecoin community.

Production quality on the video is weak, as noted in the subreddit, but I don't think people seeking information really care. Honestly I'm inclined to agree with some of the points made in that subreddit though. There seemed to be questionable assumptions put forth, really sloppy choices of terminology thoughout, and a dismissive attitude that does a disservice to legitimately interesting ideas. Rehearsal and editing can go a very long way to address these.

Kudos toast for spending time discussing the auction-style price discovery mechanism. I think it's a unique approach in the next-gen DNS project space and should be emphasized as it differentiates this approach from others. When you go to make the next video or presentation, it would be super effective to create some graphics ahead of time exactly like what was sketched out on the whiteboard, but find a way to clearly articulate the rationale for it.

Have you looked at http://dotp2p.io?
That's our new home page for this project. There will be a much more professional intro video there soon, and there is a bit more useful info there now.
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Offline Overthetop

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 01:32:27 pm »
I was glad to see the video, as there has been little other mention of BitShares DNS elsewhere. It had lots of good info. I did also listen to the radio show but it was completely void of useful information. Not much toast featured on there, basically just a boring rant about the awful Namecoin community.

Production quality on the video is weak, as noted in the subreddit, but I don't think people seeking information really care. Honestly I'm inclined to agree with some of the points made in that subreddit though. There seemed to be questionable assumptions put forth, really sloppy choices of terminology thoughout, and a dismissive attitude that does a disservice to legitimately interesting ideas. Rehearsal and editing can go a very long way to address these.

Kudos toast for spending time discussing the auction-style price discovery mechanism. I think it's a unique approach in the next-gen DNS project space and should be emphasized as it differentiates this approach from others. When you go to make the next video or presentation, it would be super effective to create some graphics ahead of time exactly like what was sketched out on the whiteboard, but find a way to clearly articulate the rationale for it.

Have you looked at http://dotp2p.io?
That's our new home page for this project. There will be a much more professional intro video there soon, and there is a bit more useful info there now.
The new site is good, hope more ppl pay attention to this.

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Offline Riverhead

Re: [video] BitShares DNS
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2014, 01:13:57 pm »

Have you looked at http://dotp2p.io?
That's our new home page for this project. There will be a much more professional intro video there soon, and there is a bit more useful info there now.


Page looks great and answered all my questions...and ones I didn't know I had :) .  Can this URL be added to your [ANN] OP?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 01:20:50 pm by Riverhead »