Author Topic: Delegated Proof of Stake (DPOS) White Paper  (Read 79906 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
If you have less than 50% of the stake from any point in time, how do you make a chain longer than 49 delegates?
The order is picked once per round, no matter how you shuffle it you can't get enough in a row because you can't vote in enough fake delegates. This is a major advantage over nxt TF and I think it actually addresses nothing-at-stake. Everyone knows the original stake distribution and delegate list.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline MolonLabe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
Quote
2] You go back in time, and build a large fake chain which ONLY contains a new series of transactions, all of them from address A to other addresses for which you have the private key.
3] You use these transactions to elect an entirely new set of 100 delegates (as you control the only votes). This may not be possible quickly, but when you cant, you simply claim that the other delegates (who aren't here) failed to sign your block (and disqualified them). For a while, there might be only 3 delegates actually signing on this chain, but you quickly establish 100.
...
...
You only got the votes in your separate private chain though, the rest of the network probably would not accept you alternate reality, provided it doesn't go back all the way to the genesisblock.

Or are you talking about isolating unsupecting people in your alternate reality, that would require quite a bit of control over network connections as well, but would not affect the main network I suspect.
...

So what if people are willing to sell their private keys to addresses, such as those in the genesis block, that are now empty.  People will be happy to sell this info because it doesn't cost them anything.  They might not even be invested in the chain anymore.  And you can use these old keys to build your alternate reality where you control a bigger stake.

It doesn't matter, after a few rounds of 99% delegate participation the chain declares an automatic snapshot.  So the longest chain is only a short-term metric. 

Now I get the feeling that you aren't even trying...
What difference do snapshots make? My alternate reality can also contain snapshots after a few rounds of 99% participation. It can have exactly the same tx, but with different delegates.

When new nodes connect, how will they know what to do? I can make dozens of chains that all have networks which look exactly like the original network, or different in any way I choose.

You can guarantee that new nodes will only connect to honest peers? How exactly do you do that?

Offline BTSdac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: K1

1.DPOS system have 100 delegates ,and how many backup delegates DPOS system have , you konw enough backup delegates is necessary in case DDOS attack to formal delegates 
2.if there is no outside attack, DPOS have  100 delegates ,  how many delegates must online at least to keep the system runing well,  how many delegates can been replace in one round?
3.Is there a award to backup delegates for keeping online?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 01:09:33 pm by BTSdac »
github.com :pureland
BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline JoeyD

It can't be detected, and the most Amazon/DO/etc would be able to do is shut down the delegate.
.. or steal the privkey ?!

Do you have to use your priv-key on the server itself? Is it not possible to transfer an encrypted wallet via ssh and not enter priv-keys on the hosted server?

Oh hang on, amazon can read the memory as well, so you might need a complex encryption setup that also encrypts data in memory. Haven't looked at ram-encryption so I'm unfamiliar with the possibilities there.

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12922
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
It can't be detected, and the most Amazon/DO/etc would be able to do is shut down the delegate.
.. or steal the privkey ?!

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Can it be detected is a delegate hosts his server with amazon or another cloud service. If that is the prefered method and it is not detectable but Amauon knows what they are hosting this could be a point of control by central entities?
See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4813.15

It can't be detected, and the most Amazon/DO/etc would be able to do is shut down the delegate.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
Can it be detected is a delegate hosts his server with amazon or another cloud service. If that is the prefered method and it is not detectable but Amauon knows what they are hosting this could be a point of control by central entities?
See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4813.15

Offline solaaire

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • praise the sun!
    • View Profile
awesome work guys. this may seem like a strange request, but would any of you guys mind sharing some newer photos of the office, your workstations, or maybe a pic of the recently united crew? i know yall are busy and its an exciting time... but im excited too damnit! I wanna see some of the cool stuff thats happening over there, and i know im not the only one! Plus photos are very... tangible and can go a long way in helping people feel connected to a project or experience

Actually, Brian plans to make a video of life on the BitShares Bridge and take you deep inside the BitShares Bunker.  He will be filming it on Monday.

even better, looking forward to it  :)

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
awesome work guys. this may seem like a strange request, but would any of you guys mind sharing some newer photos of the office, your workstations, or maybe a pic of the recently united crew? i know yall are busy and its an exciting time... but im excited too damnit! I wanna see some of the cool stuff thats happening over there, and i know im not the only one! Plus photos are very... tangible and can go a long way in helping people feel connected to a project or experience

Actually, Brian plans to make a video of life on the BitShares Bridge and take you deep inside the BitShares Bunker.  He will be filming it on Monday.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Suggestion:

Try to make voting "anonymous".  I think it is not desirable if a delegate can buy votes (selectively give back transaction fees to those that vote for the delegate).

An attacking entity can operate at a loss and pay people to vote for their delegates.

And everyone that knows the attacking entity is doing this will vote AGAINST them and thus nullify any benefit that group was attempting to gain.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Agent86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • BTSX: agent86
    • View Profile
Suggestion:

Try to make voting "anonymous".  I think it is not desirable if a delegate can buy votes (selectively give back transaction fees to those that vote for the delegate).

An attacking entity can operate at a loss and pay people to vote for their delegates.

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12922
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
As the collection of quotes and descriptions rapidly growed I dedicated a own pad to the DPOS features

http://pad.bitshares.org/p/DPOS_FeatureList

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12922
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
I am trying to compile a list of 'features' and quotes for DPOS
http://pad.bitshares.org/p/Upcoming_Newsletter_articles

http://pad.bitshares.org/p/DPOS_FeatureList

Goals is to be able to teach others what exactly DPOS is and how it compares to NXT, Ripple, satoshi-blockchain.

I'd probably need some help as I might haved mixed things up :-(
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 12:21:34 pm by xeroc »

Offline bytemaster

Quote
2] You go back in time, and build a large fake chain which ONLY contains a new series of transactions, all of them from address A to other addresses for which you have the private key.
3] You use these transactions to elect an entirely new set of 100 delegates (as you control the only votes). This may not be possible quickly, but when you cant, you simply claim that the other delegates (who aren't here) failed to sign your block (and disqualified them). For a while, there might be only 3 delegates actually signing on this chain, but you quickly establish 100.

This is not possible, someone with a minority of shares cannot elect 100 delegates.  All shares are voting for someone at some time.  You can change your vote, but not create new votes.   End result is that if you control 10% of the shares, you can only effect 10% of the delegate selection and thus your secret chain would only ever be able to produce 1/10 of the blocks of the public chain.

I don't have a minority, I have all the votes, don't I?
You only got the votes in your separate private chain though, the rest of the network probably would not accept you alternate reality, provided it doesn't go back all the way to the genesisblock.

Or are you talking about isolating unsupecting people in your alternate reality, that would require quite a bit of control over network connections as well, but would not affect the main network I suspect.

If you go all the way back to the genesis block and have 10% in the genesis block balance...  you will never be able to produce a chain more than 1/10 the length of the public chain.  It just is not possible. 

Remember: a block is not produced every 30 seconds unless all delegates are on line.  If a delegate is not on line to produce a block in that timeslot the time slot is skipped and that chain is forever one block shorter than it could have been.

So what if people are willing to sell their private keys to addresses, such as those in the genesis block, that are now empty.  People will be happy to sell this info because it doesn't cost them anything.  They might not even be invested in the chain anymore.  And you can use these old keys to build your alternate reality where you control a bigger stake.

It doesn't matter, after a few rounds of 99% delegate participation the chain declares an automatic snapshot.  So the longest chain is only a short-term metric. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Agent86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • BTSX: agent86
    • View Profile
Quote
2] You go back in time, and build a large fake chain which ONLY contains a new series of transactions, all of them from address A to other addresses for which you have the private key.
3] You use these transactions to elect an entirely new set of 100 delegates (as you control the only votes). This may not be possible quickly, but when you cant, you simply claim that the other delegates (who aren't here) failed to sign your block (and disqualified them). For a while, there might be only 3 delegates actually signing on this chain, but you quickly establish 100.

This is not possible, someone with a minority of shares cannot elect 100 delegates.  All shares are voting for someone at some time.  You can change your vote, but not create new votes.   End result is that if you control 10% of the shares, you can only effect 10% of the delegate selection and thus your secret chain would only ever be able to produce 1/10 of the blocks of the public chain.

I don't have a minority, I have all the votes, don't I?
You only got the votes in your separate private chain though, the rest of the network probably would not accept you alternate reality, provided it doesn't go back all the way to the genesisblock.

Or are you talking about isolating unsupecting people in your alternate reality, that would require quite a bit of control over network connections as well, but would not affect the main network I suspect.

If you go all the way back to the genesis block and have 10% in the genesis block balance...  you will never be able to produce a chain more than 1/10 the length of the public chain.  It just is not possible. 

Remember: a block is not produced every 30 seconds unless all delegates are on line.  If a delegate is not on line to produce a block in that timeslot the time slot is skipped and that chain is forever one block shorter than it could have been.

So what if people are willing to sell their private keys to addresses, such as those in the genesis block, that are now empty.  People will be happy to sell this info because it doesn't cost them anything.  They might not even be invested in the chain anymore.  And you can use these old keys to build your alternate reality where you control a bigger stake.