MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin

[liondani]

even though the MSC side is closed David Johnston with MSC/bitangels has been responding to posts by angry MSC bagholders by telling them not to worry and to email him because he will "hook them up"
So anyone else who overpaid for MSC and didn't wake up at 3AM for the IPO, email David, maybe he can hook you up.

Give links next time, nobody would believe you if they not allready know that 
Mastercoin people are good people 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/mastercoin/282284711939016/?notif_t=group_comment_reply

David A. Johnston This is a good question and I can actually provide some clarity here. I was participating from the 3:00 a.m. central time start and pestering David and Nick with questions the whole way through.
The crowdsale went faster than anyone expected is now completely sold out. All the MSAFE tokens (429,000,000) were generated in the first four or five hours (just check the addresses to confirm).
The MSC address came down from the website when the crowdsale was ended. Those MSAFE for sale now are re-sales from the crowdsale.
Some bigger buyers agreed to let the MaidSafe team sell their MSAFE at the crowdsale price (bonus included) so that they could balance out the MSC and BTC ratio they received. Which looks like it will end up around 50% BTC / 50% MSC.
Last I hear there was about 1,500 BTC left for re-sale which can be bought directly off the Safecoin.io website.
It was pretty amazing how fast it went. I'm sure some will be disappointed they missed the window, but our SAFE Network project got a ton of support and it really shows how excited this community is for the project.
If you have MSC and wanted MSAFE shoot me a PM I got more than expected because of the bonus and so I can help a few people out (I'm not charging any fee, I just want to support the community members who believe in this project).

[liondani]

To improve upon their system I would:
1) eliminate inflation all together and power the network by better unit of account
2) move the responsibility for load balancing and replication to local nodes
3) charge users any time they consume more than they produce

Hope David Irvine will read your advices...
since I am also invested on maidsafe project 

[Agent86]

Yea, when everything I read seemed to suggest the service was supposed to be free and not paid for in safecoin I didn't post it because it just seemed so crazy that I thought there had to be a misunderstanding.  I guess not.

Adam,
don't worry if these posts are down on maidsafecoin, not many of the investors are reading this.  If you bought MSC before the run up in price and got in on the IPO I think you'll be ok for a good while.

I wouldn't recommend sending BTC;  even though the MSC side is closed David Johnston with MSC/bitangels has been responding to posts by angry MSC bagholders by telling them not to worry and to email him because he will "hook them up"

So anyone else who overpaid for MSC and didn't wake up at 3AM for the IPO, email David, maybe he can hook you up.

[bitmeat]

Guys, let's be civil. Bytemaster - back to work I'm sure it will be a rocky road for them as well. But I also think we will learn a great deal from the exercise.


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[AdamBLevine]

Quotes from: AdamBLevine on Today at 05:57:24 PM

...I'm a little curious what great insight you have Daniel?

launch something before you take the time to gloat about other peoples success.

Set him up, then smack him down.  Nice.

the schadenfreude was going on way before I showed up, he was not defining it just saying that he would help them fix, and of course flatly saying that nobody understands economics.

Sorry guys, I spend about 5% the time on your project I used to so I don't have time to respond to everything.  I just wish you would work instead of talking about everybody elses failings when you are so unable to deal with your own.

[liondani]

Quotes from: AdamBLevine on Today at 05:57:24 PM

...I'm a little curious what "great insight" you have Daniel?

launch something before you take the time to gloat about other peoples success.

Set him up, then smack him down.  Nice.

It was obvious misstyped... they don't set him up.

[G1ng3rBr34dM4n]

Buying safecoin is the equavlent of donating to support the maidsafe network.

  I fail to grasp how safecoin will generate value unless it creates a walled-garden market place; which seems to me, would contradict the ideals of the platform itself...

[bytemaster]

The problem of decentralized storage really boils down to something very simple:

1) Produce software that turns your computer into a bandwidth / storage vending machine
2) Provide a means to be easily discovered by customers
3) Simplify micropayment
4) Automate inventory management to maximize revenue.

Safecoin as a concept is independent to the steps above.  While it could in theory be used for step 3... it is actually less suited for this step than bitcoin because the coins are not easily divisible.   Not only that, Safecoin isn't being used for this payment step.

So the closest analogy I can think of for safecoin is that it is an inflationary altcoin that is issued by proof-of-bandwidth.  Its use as an altcoin is independent of everything else in the maidsafe system.  Those that hold this coin pay to provide free service for everyone on the maidsafe network. 

So it is innovative and will work until the value of safecoin crashes as it is competing against more profitable alternatives.   Buying safecoin is the equavlent of donating to support the maidsafe network.   

[Stan]

Quotes from: AdamBLevine on Today at 05:57:24 PM

...I'm a little curious what great insight you have Daniel?

launch something before you take the time to gloat about other peoples success.

Set him up, then smack him down.  Nice.

[toast]

You are using "inflation" like in "price inflation" and like in "money supply inflation" as if they are the same thing. There is an old sticky in the bitcoin forum:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140793.0

This is clearly contributing a huge disagreement between us about the relationship between maidsafe-the-technology and the safecoin-the-equity. Usually I feel like I have some clarity into systems like this but right now I am fumbling to understand how you think the pieces fit together.

"Show me your success!" is not really a counterargument, I can assure you those complaints have been noted.

[bytemaster]

Adam,
   You are using the loosy-goosy definition of inflation/deflation used by the media to deceive the public about the true economic effects of government printing money.   

   Sure bitcoin masks monetary inflation with increases in demand, it just means that people have a harder time measuring their losses.   This is deceptive and temporary.   Fact of the matter is that all monetary inflation is a reallocation of wealth from those that hold it to those who receive new coins.   Therefore safe coin is having all users pay to subsidize the growth of the network.... it then offers the services of the network for free.   

   We did not promise anything or set any deadlines... I just made an estimate that may or may not be overly ambitious.  Your attempt to deflect our arguments against maidsafes design by ad homium and/or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment is poor taste. 

   

[AdamBLevine]

What reason do they have to accept the cost of not offering the cheapest they are able directly in btc? To prop up safecoin? What will they do against people who accept btc at those prices?

I want someone to break down why two parties will consistently choose to trade their preffered money into and out of safecoin before performing their exchange. The only way for this to happen is if the DAC doesn't work unless you do, and you can only get people to accept that cost is for the value add from the DAC (not from the other party in the exchange!!) is greater than that cost.

Maidsafe is facilitating transactions for free (at cost even??) and then promoting a maidsafe-brand cryptocurrency on the side.


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Because it's the token of the network, and acceptance gives it value.  Everybody running on the safecoin network will have safecoin, so everyone is vested in its success.  Nobody says it has to be the only token, but being the native token and all participants being vested through non-monetary means means you have an enormous community just like doge except there is actual value here.

You guys are seeing this as a negative, but to my eyes it is a positive - people who want a lot buy it, people who want a little farm it.  The market will value it.  More options is better unless they step on each other.

Also you keep calling Bitcoin inflationary but it's only technically inflationary, in practice is is and always has been deflationary because demand far outstripes increases in supply.   I would argue you can look at CoinmarketCap and find many tokens who have deflationary fundamentals but because of failure to penetrate the mindshare and achieve critical mass they are inflationary in practice since demand falls away but supply remains.  Ripple is an excellent example of this.

seriously, launch something before you take the time to gloat about other peoples success.  Will we in fact see a release next week?  I want to believe but have really no faith left after every single self imposed deadline has been blown with very little commentary.  We like talking about other peoples failures and our successes, but it would be great if there were some personal successes to talk about that don't conclude with "And that was promising"

[luckybit]

Byte master you are missing the forest for the trees. Once you have a secure layer of storage and messaging, all sorts of decentralized solutions built on top of that will emerge. It may take some time but the demand will be there. Your viewpoint is a tad narrow minded here. Yes the initial investment may not be worth for people donating in BTC, but they have a surprisingly well WORKING software. That will really propel them. Also if the supply has no demand many will not provide their storage so it will eventually balance itself out. Then there will be quality of service, and those who are on 24/7 reliably will get more clients.


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Couldn't a large company provide storage at a loss under the same belief that you have?

[bytemaster]

What reason do they have to accept the cost of not offering the cheapest they are able directly in btc? To prop up safecoin? What will they do against people who accept btc at those prices?

I want someone to break down why two parties will consistently choose to trade their preffered money into and out of safecoin before performing their exchange. The only way for this to happen is if the DAC doesn't work unless you do, and you can only get people to accept that cost is for the value add from the DAC (not from the other party in the exchange!!) is greater than that cost.

Maidsafe is facilitating transactions for free (at cost even??) and then promoting a maidsafe-brand cryptocurrency on the side.


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   conversion into and out of safecoin is just as costly as conversion into and out of an alt coin.   This is why people transact only in bitcoin right now and few places accept anything else.   It is cheaper to accept bitcoin because there is one less exchange delay between converting back to fiat.

[bytemaster]

Seems like there are **loads** of features or things that could be arbitrarily offered for safecoins.   All they have to do is offer a customization/parts suite that comes as a default bookmark and make Safecoin the cheapest option.  The market has a good reason to value the safecoins, there is no per-piece cost for anything sold on this platform for safecoins and the safecoins can be sold back onto the market at this supported price.

They may not have done this yet, but it's a trivial thing to do once the platform is there - I'm a little curious what great insight you have Daniel?   I've already got folks onboard with an angelshares-like model and the various work is open source.

Anything can be used as money... the issue is whether people want to hold an inflationary currency in a market where there are deflationary alternatives.    Yes you could offer services for safecoins, but there is little reason to be exclusively safecoin when you could accept something else.   

The market will place a speculative price on anything, it will all come down to where exclusive demand for safecoins will come from and the relative inflation rate.   

Lets make one thing clear... I like maidsafe's network solution (KAD + UDT) ... I like that they are thinking outside the box and have the 7th major design alternative when it comes to coins.

bitcoin: proof of work - losses
ripple:   proof of debt + consensus - profitable
peercoin: proof of stake hybrid - inflationary / losses
nxt:  pure proof of stake - break even
opentransactions: federated servers issuing debt + voting pools
bitshares:  delegated proof of stake + profits
maidsafe: individual tokens with no block chain... first decentralized transaction ledger - inflationary

So any critiques I have against Maidsafe are not on the value of the problem they are solving, but on technique they think will solve it, but which I do not think has a strong economic foundation.   

To improve upon their system I would:
1) eliminate inflation all together and power the network by better unit of account
2) move the responsibility for load balancing and replication to local nodes
3) charge users any time they consume more than they produce