MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin

[phoenix]

I have asked the following question at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/1jrH-Qqqb2w :

    In the whitepaper it's unclear how the difficulty of generating safecoins will increase over time.

    There is no mechanism provided. And if they aren't any basically the cost of generating safecoin will decrease with Moore law (so will do the price...).

And this is David Irvine's answer:

It's controlled by the mining algorithm that's exponential. There is also a space that the hash of a mining attempt must fit into, this is 2^32 and gets exponentially (^2) more difficult with each mining success.

Many factors will influence this, number of users, Builders, Farmers etc. It is not time based and all calculations are mute wrt time. The premise is that as more use of the network happens, it must be valued. As this is the case Farmers are incentivised to Farm and builders build. This value should increase the value of safecoin and related uses of it (perhaps even buying resources as we go along).

  this is so disturbing that I am glad they IPOd on mastercoin

The economic model is confusing for sure, but the system itself is incredible

[liondani]

this is so disturbing that I am glad they IPOd on mastercoin

Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.' ...

[toast]

I have asked the following question at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/1jrH-Qqqb2w :

    In the whitepaper it's unclear how the difficulty of generating safecoins will increase over time.

    There is no mechanism provided. And if they aren't any basically the cost of generating safecoin will decrease with Moore law (so will do the price...).

And this is David Irvine's answer:

It's controlled by the mining algorithm that's exponential. There is also a space that the hash of a mining attempt must fit into, this is 2^32 and gets exponentially (^2) more difficult with each mining success.

Many factors will influence this, number of users, Builders, Farmers etc. It is not time based and all calculations are mute wrt time. The premise is that as more use of the network happens, it must be valued. As this is the case Farmers are incentivised to Farm and builders build. This value should increase the value of safecoin and related uses of it (perhaps even buying resources as we go along).

  this is so disturbing that I am glad they IPOd on mastercoin

[BldSwtTrs]

I have asked the following question at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/1jrH-Qqqb2w :

    In the whitepaper it's unclear how the difficulty of generating safecoins will increase over time.

    There is no mechanism provided. And if they aren't any basically the cost of generating safecoin will decrease with Moore law (so will do the price...).

And this is David Irvine's answer:

It's controlled by the mining algorithm that's exponential. There is also a space that the hash of a mining attempt must fit into, this is 2^32 and gets exponentially (^2) more difficult with each mining success.

Many factors will influence this, number of users, Builders, Farmers etc. It is not time based and all calculations are mute wrt time. The premise is that as more use of the network happens, it must be valued. As this is the case Farmers are incentivised to Farm and builders build. This value should increase the value of safecoin and related uses of it (perhaps even buying resources as we go along).

[BldSwtTrs]

lastly, i just read the maidsafe whitepaper. they essentially have mining without a difficulty adjustment or reduction of mining reward so the issuence of new safecoins is determined by moores law. this is an entirely inflationary system that serves to dilute continually dilute the value of previously issued safecoin:



unfortunately maidsafe is trying to assert that the price of safecoin is negatively correlated to the cost of resources


maybe i missed something, but that doesnt make sense.

i think that maidsafe has a great product and it will certainly change the world, but as far as being a good investment strategy i dont really think it is one.

Is there no cap of safecoins issued?

In the whitepaper they say that a cap of 4 billions safecoin will exist.

They also write:
The mining speed per vault is projected as
Time    Number of coins
first day              800
first week     1800
first month     4000
first year           19000

So it looks like the difficulty will increase over time. Am I missing something?

[cass]

The challenge they face now is that the ipo is set in motion and cannot easily be changed.  Just like we learn   As we make mistakes so will they. 

We here in the bts community have one critical edge over every other project:  we understand economics better than everyone else. 

I have warned the maidsafe guys about their broken economic model, but they have too much momentum to change.     

They plan to try and then fix it if it fails.  It will. 

Hopefully they can recognize it and fix it ASAP, but that will set them back on schedule.   

Our strength of being willing to admit our designs are flawed is that our schedule slips. Others rush ahead with flawed (significantly so) systems.  We are the turtle they are the hare. We will win in the end with steady improvement and open minds  that are willing to adjust course. 

Maidsafe has great software and I want them to be successful.  In time we will be integrating keyhotee with them.  We just need to help them fix the economic model. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sounds great

[bytemaster]

The challenge they face now is that the ipo is set in motion and cannot easily be changed.  Just like we learn   As we make mistakes so will they. 

We here in the bts community have one critical edge over every other project:  we understand economics better than everyone else. 

I have warned the maidsafe guys about their broken economic model, but they have too much momentum to change.     

They plan to try and then fix it if it fails.  It will. 

Hopefully they can recognize it and fix it ASAP, but that will set them back on schedule.   

Our strength of being willing to admit our designs are flawed is that our schedule slips. Others rush ahead with flawed (significantly so) systems.  We are the turtle they are the hare. We will win in the end with steady improvement and open minds  that are willing to adjust course. 

Maidsafe has great software and I want them to be successful.  In time we will be integrating keyhotee with them.  We just need to help them fix the economic model. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[unimercio]

I agree with Luckybit, we should not be cheering for failure - we WANT them to succeed because it sets a precedent for our success.

I wish them well, as I wish my neighbor selling his house for twice what it's worth.

[clout]

lastly, i just read the maidsafe whitepaper. they essentially have mining without a difficulty adjustment or reduction of mining reward so the issuence of new safecoins is determined by moores law. this is an entirely inflationary system that serves to dilute continually dilute the value of previously issued safecoin:



unfortunately maidsafe is trying to assert that the price of safecoin is negatively correlated to the cost of resources



maybe i missed something, but that doesnt make sense.

i think that maidsafe has a great product and it will certainly change the world, but as far as being a good investment strategy i dont really think it is one.

[clout]

also adam, what were you saying about mastercoin having to pay fines?

[clout]

Indeed, the way the rules are written for the MaidSafe Crowdsale they NEEDED to fix a price for MSC and given the extremely low liquidity of mastercoin the .2 price is conservative.

That doesn't make sense. Price has nothing to do with liquidity.

[Agent86]

the way the rules are written for the MaidSafe Crowdsale they NEEDED to fix a price for MSC

Yea, that's the problem: someone convinced them to write the rules this way.  There are ways of doing an IPO that don't involve fixing the price of MSC.

The guy who wrote it is anti Mastercoin. Talking about how he dumped it at a big loss and attacking the Mastercoin foundation.

The guy posting on bitcointalk didn't have a grudge against MSC; he just bought MSC today because of the Maidsafe IPO and was pumping the whole thing and telling people to buy MSC until other people made observations and he looked at it closer and changed his mind.  He wasn't the only one pointing out problems.

I think if the bitshares community could show them a way of doing their IPO in a less convoluted and controversial way, it could help them and help us collaborate with them.

Even the appearance of impropriety is horrible for an IPO.  Same reason Eddie Corral dumped ZenithCoin for the Music DAC after spending money on it.

[luckybit]

"it's not good for the community as a whole to start talking about price manipulations and conspiracies."

It's not good if it's not true, but if it is true, it's not helpful to ignore it.

In any case, I didn't make the original claims and just wanted to bring the discussion to people's attention.

I really can't see what value MasterCoin is bringing to them;
Why set it up so you get more safecoin/$ by contributing MSC instead of BTC?

In that case people who have too many MSC will have a reason to sell some of them and the distribution of MSC will improve.

[AdamBLevine]

Indeed, the way the rules are written for the MaidSafe Crowdsale they NEEDED to fix a price for MSC and given the extremely low liquidity of mastercoin the .2 price is conservative.  Right now MSC is priced based on no good exchanges and no uses, post Maidsafe it will be a very different value proposition.

I agree with Luckybit, we should not be cheering for failure - we WANT them to succeed because it sets a precedent for our success.

[Agent86]

"it's not good for the community as a whole to start talking about price manipulations and conspiracies."

It's not good if it's not true, but if it is true, it's not helpful to ignore it.

In any case, I didn't make the original claims and just wanted to bring the discussion to people's attention.

I really can't see what value MasterCoin is bringing to them;
Why set it up so you get more safecoin/$ by contributing MSC instead of BTC?