bts

[Empirical1]

Thanks for the replies luckybit. I don't agree with you, but you communicate your ideas well and you're clearly passionate about your point of view.

You're talking about a DAC specific airdrop not general Bitshares right?

If it's DAC specific at least you can target communities who are interested in and create a buzz around a specific DAC.

It's an airdrop for everything except Bitshares. Bitshares cannot be diluted and I suggested virtual mining as a way to distribute Bitshares to the investors and miners while increasing buy support (similar to Blackcoin).

I think only Bitshares X and its' descendants can't be diluted. Future Bitshares DAC's can still choose to airdrop I think?

I'm not against Stan's option of a third group so that our future DAC strategic partners at least have the freedom of choice...

Also, AGS is designed to be a targeted group of proven patron donors.  Once developers figure out that this is a "mailing list" of people they want to court as supporters, it will be the most valuable thing to honor.  If you mix in people who are not donors, you dilute the demographic and therefore harm the "pulling power" of those who did donate.

Recall that PTS is designed to be a targeted "mailing list" of proven saver-supporters who won't grab and dump.

Now, if someone created a third "mailing list" proto-coin, separate from PTS and AGS, that honored a mix of the first-generation industry leaders, then future snapshots would have the option to attract them with their own 10% if they so desired.  Maybe it would be called "BitShares POS" and make it a nice neutral introduction to profitable DPOS block-chains for everybody.

Personally I think strategic partners looking to collaborate with Bitshares aren't joining to get access to a large unfocused community of millions that were air-dropped free equity. If they want that they can do it themselves with a few clicks of a mouse.

They want access to the Bitshares DAC delivery machine, which is building the best talent (Bytemaster & friends) & is doing the opposite of your strategy - funnelling out of that community of millions - the best few thousand DAC savvy supporters - who have proved it with an investment of their capital/time/work in PTS & AGS.

A new developer/small community/industry partner won't have this, so it's in their interest to join Bitshares.

Bitshares! what is your profession?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIr8u0j08gU

Why dilute our DAC savvy core & defeat the purpose of creating it, when we can always partner with other communities via strategic DAC specific airdrops when it's too our advantage?

You seem to think you need a community of millions to launch a DAC. No, you need marketing, talent & a supportive community large enough so that the initial equity is well & fairly distributed & no overly large shareholders can dump the price. (Where NXT & Ripple failed for eg. IMO.) So far evidence has also shown that air-dropees dump all over the price, exactly what a DAC launch doesn't want. (If you do a test and prove otherwise I may change my mind.) The community of millions will be built around specific DAC's depending on their popularity.

It's taken Bitshares a lot of hard work to build the thousands strong distributed core (Which is still growing) and it is something that larger unfocused groups can't compete with. They can only fork and airdrop close to 100% which so far has shown doesn't build a new community and even 50% airdrops result in 99% avg. shareholder losses from the highs. They also can't maintain and develop much either.

Anyway that's probably the last I'lll say on the subject for a bit. I'll support whatever the community decides. 

[bitbro]

I pledge to donate to the faucet.  Let's hash out some planning!


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[luckybit]

You're talking about a DAC specific airdrop not general Bitshares right?

If it's DAC specific at least you can target communities who are interested in and create a buzz around a specific DAC.

It's an airdrop for everything except Bitshares. Bitshares cannot be diluted and I suggested virtual mining as a way to distribute Bitshares to the investors and miners while increasing buy support (similar to Blackcoin).

Also, why give them away for free? Why not at most 1/2 price?
Surely people who have purchased some alt-coin at full price, that you think will become part of a community that support Bitshares can at least see the value of purchasing shares at 1/2 of market value?

Give what away for free? Future DACs aren't worth anything yet and you need a community to build it. So you have to give the future stakes away in order to get the community to build it and honor AGS. Once the snapshot takes place then the only way to get shares should be to buy.

So for pre-snapshot DACs the airdrop would give everyone a share in those but for Bitshares it's too late. I think this is fair.

[Empirical1]

You're talking about a DAC specific airdrop not general Bitshares right?

If it's DAC specific at least you can target communities who are interested in and create a buzz around a specific DAC.

Also, why give them away for free? Why not at most 1/2 price?
Surely people who have purchased some alt-coin at full price, that you think will become part of a community that support Bitshares can at least see the value of purchasing shares at 1/2 of market value?

[fuzzy]

I would do the drop in such a way that it's AGS being dropped and not BTS. They'll have to buy BTS, but they'd get AGS so that they share a stake in the future successes of the DACs which honor AGS. This would actually make it more likely that DACs will honor AGS because more people will own AGS.  It would also build the network effect.

This better airddropping scenario. Making BTS valuable.

I like the idea, but how would this be done without "altering the agreement"?  That always seems to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Also, AGS is designed to be a targeted group of proven patron donors.  Once developers figure out that this is a "mailing list" of people they want to court as supporters, it will be the most valuable thing to honor.  If you mix in people who are not donors, you dilute the demographic and therefore harm the "pulling power" of those who did donate.

Recall that PTS is designed to be a targeted "mailing list" of proven saver-supporters who won't grab and dump.

Now, if someone created a third "mailing list" proto-coin, separate from PTS and AGS, that honored a mix of the first-generation industry leaders, then future snapshots would have the option to attract them with their own 10% if they so desired.  Maybe it would be called "BitShares POS" and make it a nice neutral introduction to profitable DPOS block-chains for everybody.

Just a wild idea.  What would be the pros and cons of that?

How about an Airdrop alliance version of AGS which we can donate to? The purpose of this AGS would be to facilitate strategic alliances between compatible communities. Think about it as something similar to the birth of the United States or a trade agreement between countries. A strategic agreement should be reached between all communities which promote the concept of the DAC.

The social contract should be formed among these communities such that they'll Airdrop to each other. All who donate to the Airdrop AGS address would become part of the mailing list which will receive the Airdrops from the communities which join the alliance in the future. Mastercoin can have it's own Angel address where it's community can donate, Counterparty could have theirs, each community which agrees to this would contribute to the funding of Airdrops. As a gesture of good will the Bitshares community could go first.

This way in one move you could quickly build a web of alliances between the communities such that the grassroots would benefit from the successes of the overall DAC community. If one of the DACs are a major success then everyone would have some small portion of it and it also means people would be much quicker to learn more about it and buy more shares.

That is the best I could come up with. It needs a lot more thought, but I think now it might require a new kind of intercommunity social contract.

Damnit lucky, why were you not on the Mumble Server today when Bytemaster was talking about this stuff?  Your points are always well thought out and make me think.  I am not saying there aren't flaws that other people would pick out, but these thoughts are precisely the kind that lead to truly superior methodologies. 

Just a wild idea.  What would be the pros and cons of that?

Just ignore the airdrop thing and make more ideas of DACs. Bitshare has already been snapshot. To get/have bitshare is thru an exchange. Not as bounty for marketing. PTS is already doing that.

would there be a way to allow, say, the top 10 cryptocurrencies to vote on which DACs under the "Alternative DACs" forum section they would like to see next?  Have an AGS-style donation that also functions as a vote (kind of like on Cryptsy) only where every coin donated rewards those who donated similarly to how AGS did? 

Instead of "ending" the AGS period, we would essentially just be adding the top 10 cryptos to the Remaining AGS days and find some way to make it also count as a vote.  Not sure if this is possible from a coding perspective, and just a thought, but as I see it, the AGS funding model might gain Invictus a great deal more funding in the long-run if they open up the Alternative DACs AGS funding to Alternative Coins. 

[luckybit]

I would do the drop in such a way that it's AGS being dropped and not BTS. They'll have to buy BTS, but they'd get AGS so that they share a stake in the future successes of the DACs which honor AGS. This would actually make it more likely that DACs will honor AGS because more people will own AGS.  It would also build the network effect.

This better airddropping scenario. Making BTS valuable.

I like the idea, but how would this be done without "altering the agreement"?  That always seems to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Also, AGS is designed to be a targeted group of proven patron donors.  Once developers figure out that this is a "mailing list" of people they want to court as supporters, it will be the most valuable thing to honor.  If you mix in people who are not donors, you dilute the demographic and therefore harm the "pulling power" of those who did donate.

Recall that PTS is designed to be a targeted "mailing list" of proven saver-supporters who won't grab and dump.

Now, if someone created a third "mailing list" proto-coin, separate from PTS and AGS, that honored a mix of the first-generation industry leaders, then future snapshots would have the option to attract them with their own 10% if they so desired.  Maybe it would be called "BitShares POS" and make it a nice neutral introduction to profitable DPOS block-chains for everybody.

Just a wild idea.  What would be the pros and cons of that?

How about an Airdrop alliance version of AGS which we can donate to? The purpose of this AGS would be to facilitate strategic alliances between compatible communities. Think about it as something similar to the birth of the United States or a trade agreement between countries. A strategic agreement should be reached between all communities which promote the concept of the DAC.

The social contract should be formed among these communities such that they'll Airdrop to each other. All who donate to the Airdrop AGS address would become part of the mailing list which will receive the Airdrops from the communities which join the alliance in the future. Mastercoin can have it's own Angel address where it's community can donate, Counterparty could have theirs, each community which agrees to this would contribute to the funding of Airdrops. As a gesture of good will the Bitshares community could go first.

This way in one move you could quickly build a web of alliances between the communities such that the grassroots would benefit from the successes of the overall DAC community. If one of the DACs are a major success then everyone would have some small portion of it and it also means people would be much quicker to learn more about it and buy more shares.

That is the best I could come up with. It needs a lot more thought, but I think now it might require a new kind of intercommunity social contract.

[luckybit]

I would do the drop in such a way that it's AGS being dropped and not BTS. They'll have to buy BTS, but they'd get AGS so that they share a stake in the future successes of the DACs which honor AGS. This would actually make it more likely that DACs will honor AGS because more people will own AGS.  It would also build the network effect.

This better airddropping scenario. Making BTS valuable.

I like the idea, but how would this be done without "altering the agreement"?  That always seems to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Also, AGS is designed to be a targeted group of proven patron donors.  Once developers figure out that this is a "mailing list" of people they want to court as supporters, it will be the most valuable thing to honor.  If you mix in people who are not donors, you dilute the demographic and therefore harm the "pulling power" of those who did donate.

Recall that PTS is designed to be a targeted "mailing list" of proven saver-supporters who won't grab and dump.

Now, if someone created a third "mailing list" proto-coin, separate from PTS and AGS, that honored a mix of the first-generation industry leaders, then future snapshots would have the option to attract them with their own 10% if they so desired.  Maybe it would be called "BitShares POS" and make it a nice neutral introduction to profitable DPOS block-chains for everybody.

Just a wild idea.  What would be the pros and cons of that?

These are good questions. We may need an Airshare or Airdropshare specifically for this purpose to be carefully designed from scratch to be illiquid, to promote strategic alliances.

Maybe Airshare is a stupid name but I couldn't think of anything else. I'm actually for the idea of doing it, I just don't know how it can be done in a way which doesn't damage current AGS holders.

We need to brainstorm and ask the community for creative ideas. Specifically we need to provide incentives for the community to get behind it while also giving incentives to other communities to become allies.

[jwiz168]

Doing such poll will not alter the bitshare allocation via Feb 28 snapshot. Instead burn some BTC to have another snapshot at another DAC. 

[donkeypong]

I like the idea, but how would this be done without "altering the agreement"?  That always seems to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Why not run a poll and see who would be opposed to ending the AGS donation period a little early, then use these AGS for the air drop? Alternatively, the final weeks of AGS could be for airdrop donations only. That is, no one donating on those days would get any AGS shares themselves; shares from donations received all would go towards the air drop. And then you've got the dropped shares embedded into the whole family tree (aside from any earlier snapshots), which would be less of a headache than DAC developers having to figure this out each time.

[jwiz168]

Just a wild idea.  What would be the pros and cons of that?

Just ignore the airdrop thing and make more ideas of DACs. Bitshare has already been snapshot. To get/have bitshare is thru an exchange. Not as bounty for marketing. PTS is already doing that.

[Stan]

I would do the drop in such a way that it's AGS being dropped and not BTS. They'll have to buy BTS, but they'd get AGS so that they share a stake in the future successes of the DACs which honor AGS. This would actually make it more likely that DACs will honor AGS because more people will own AGS.  It would also build the network effect.

This better airddropping scenario. Making BTS valuable.

I like the idea, but how would this be done without "altering the agreement"?  That always seems to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Also, AGS is designed to be a targeted group of proven patron donors.  Once developers figure out that this is a "mailing list" of people they want to court as supporters, it will be the most valuable thing to honor.  If you mix in people who are not donors, you dilute the demographic and therefore harm the "pulling power" of those who did donate.

Recall that PTS is designed to be a targeted "mailing list" of proven saver-supporters who won't grab and dump.

Now, if someone created a third "mailing list" proto-coin, separate from PTS and AGS, that honored a mix of the first-generation industry leaders, then future snapshots would have the option to attract them with their own 10% if they so desired.  Maybe it would be called "BitShares POS" and make it a nice neutral introduction to profitable DPOS block-chains for everybody.

Just a wild idea.  What would be the pros and cons of that?

[jwiz168]

I would do the drop in such a way that it's AGS being dropped and not BTS. They'll have to buy BTS, but they'd get AGS so that they share a stake in the future successes of the DACs which honor AGS. This would actually make it more likely that DACs will honor AGS because more people will own AGS.  It would also build the network effect.

This better airddropping scenario. Making BTS valuable.

[luckybit]

I don't agree with these percentages.

Keyhotee is far more important to Bitshares as a community than Bitcoin so to give most to Bitcoin makes no logical sense. Ethereum is also very important to development of the DAC industry, far more important than Bitcoin yet it's getting 0%?

Churches, charities, this is something to do on a case by case basis. I think we can all agree on Keyhotee, and we might be able to cooperate with Ethereum because both dev teams know each other.

I'm not set on those percentages either. Keyhotee could be much higher...or even all of it. I was using the 2.5% for Bitcoin that DL, I mean DA, had suggested. And the 0.5%'s are just making the point that the top social media coins would probably give us the biggest bang for their buck. Those could be adjusted, too. I don't see why include Ethereum, but I'll leave that choice to others who understand the cooperation and politics between these two groups better than I do. How would you allocate a drop?

I would do the drop in such a way that it's AGS being dropped and not BTS. They'll have to buy BTS, but they'd get AGS so that they share a stake in the future successes of the DACs which honor AGS. This would actually make it more likely that DACs will honor AGS because more people will own AGS.  It would also build the network effect.

I would allocate it based around potential strategic significance for the Bitshares and DAC community. I would find some formula from which to measure strategic significance based on agreed upon criteria.

I don't think we should be focused on "getting rich" because you have to lay a foundation before getting rich will mean anything. Getting rich without a foundation equals pump and dump, and what you want is to have a dump resistant DAC industry which grows every year.

I think allocation is something I'm not so concerned with if it's coming from AGS. 5% or even 10% of AGS going to this would be just fine really as it would only affect people buying AGS going into the future and most of us already bought ours. The marketing expense will be paid by people who buy AGS after the Airdrop.

Another way of doing it is to let people mine for Bitshares as I said in previous posts, and for shares in other DACs as well as they go online. If that can be arranged right and if a strategic alliance can be formed with the Blackcoin community it could be mutually beneficial because they have mastered the art of pumping with dump resistance even though their technology wont be as powerful as Bitshares.

Bitshares should find a way to market itself Blackcoin pools offering a hybrid payout of Bitshares and Blackcoin for example. I would think miners would love it and Blackcoin owners would get a 50/50 split. The Airdrop could be used to give the pool operators incentive to form the alliance in the first place.

So do the Airdrop and at the same time, market Keyhotee and Bitshares on their mining pool in exchange for the Airdrop. As they own AGS they'll have a stake in the success of future DACs. They will not be able to sell the AGS either and the way for them to get BTS will be to mine for it on hybrid mining pools (BC/BTS payout).

[donkeypong]

I don't agree with these percentages.

Keyhotee is far more important to Bitshares as a community than Bitcoin so to give most to Bitcoin makes no logical sense. Ethereum is also very important to development of the DAC industry, far more important than Bitcoin yet it's getting 0%?

Churches, charities, this is something to do on a case by case basis. I think we can all agree on Keyhotee, and we might be able to cooperate with Ethereum because both dev teams know each other.

I'm not set on those percentages either. Keyhotee could be much higher...or even all of it. I was using the 2.5% for Bitcoin that DL, I mean DA, had suggested. And the 0.5%'s are just making the point that the top social media coins would probably give us the biggest bang for their buck. Those could be adjusted, too. I don't see why include Ethereum, but I'll leave that choice to others who understand the cooperation and politics between these two groups better than I do. How would you allocate a drop?

[luckybit]

Bitcoin: 2.5%
Keyhotee Use Bonus: 1%
Litecoin: 0.5%
Doge: 0.5%
Peercoin: 0.5%
Reddcoin: 0.5%
Vertcoin: 0.5%
Quark: 0.5%
Cryptogenic Bullion: 0.5%
Ethereum and Churches: 0%

I don't agree with these percentages.

Keyhotee is far more important to Bitshares as a community than Bitcoin so to give most to Bitcoin makes no logical sense. Ethereum is also very important to development of the DAC industry, far more important than Bitcoin yet it's getting 0%?

Churches, charities, this is something to do on a case by case basis. I think we can all agree on Keyhotee, and we might be able to cooperate with Ethereum because both dev teams know each other.

I also disagree with the premise "get rich first" because I don't think you'll get rich if you don't create a new industry. I don't think you can bootstrap a new industry without first creating a community. Ethereum is trying to create the same DAC industry that Bitshares is trying to create so the two communities need strategic alliances. Mastercoin, Counterparty, want to build DACs and grow the industry.

Dogecoin, they are proven to give to charity and have a strong community willing to take risks. Blackcoin is focused in on creating a community of savers and making a store of wealth currency which is the same goal that Bitshares has.

So these are the coins I suggest for an alliance via Airdrop. I would say with Dogecoin it's a gamble as most of them are probably not going to understand what the DAC is but I think that community is probably going to grow a lot  so it might be worth it.

Blackcoin is in my opinion more important than Litecoin and Bitcoin not because of quick money but because the Blackcoin community has both the skill and motivation to be of great benefit to the Bitshares community. Their business model is genius and they are really one of the first coins which has adopted a business model around itself based on making profits for its shareholders and have proven it to be effective.

Gather community first, then we can get rich together.

[luckybit]

I like the idea of using Keyhotee.

Thanks


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The Keyhotee idea is pretty good.

[xeroc]

when using a 2week half life we really need working binaries for all platforms from start. But that should be on the priorities anyway

[bitbro]

I like the idea of using Keyhotee.

Thanks


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[donkeypong]

Total faucet budget - 7% (2 week half life)

To me, this is about building a buzz and bringing in some people who will help sustain it. My coin choices are the Top 7 coins by social media presence,
http://crypt.la/2014/03/01/top-100-digital-currencies-by-social-media-presence .
There will be time for charity later; get rich first and we will have much more of a positive impact + lots to give away.

Bitcoin: 2.5%
Keyhotee Use Bonus: 1%
Litecoin: 0.5%
Doge: 0.5%
Peercoin: 0.5%
Reddcoin: 0.5%
Vertcoin: 0.5%
Quark: 0.5%
Cryptogenic Bullion: 0.5%
Ethereum and Churches: 0%

[bobmaloney]

I like the idea of using Keyhotee.

Is there any way (technically) we can make it mandatory to use Keyhotee to claim the shares?

[fuzzy]

total faucet budget - 5% (2 week half life), monthly snapshots of top 10 cryptos
#1 = 2 (pre/post announced)
#2 - 1
#3 - 1
#4 - 0.5
#5 - 0.5
KEYHOTEE - (Use 5000 PTS each month from AGS funds to purchase coins from #6-10, hopefully with a "faucet discount", to be awarded randomly and in random amounts to each Keyhotee ID that signs up within specified period of time)

Probably will require revision

*Also, Decentralized could you respond to my message quick?  I need to get feedback so I know I can meet my deadline of this weekend*

[bitbro]

Are you making this up as we go or did you have it all planned out at birth?


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[BitcoinJesus2.O]